Tankless-luke warm shower

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Sjsmithjr

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Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met!

I hate to break it to you, but even assuming a modest load of one shower, one clothes washer, one dishwasher, one lav faucet, and one kitchen faucet, you didn't meet code. Do you know why?:confused:
 

NHmaster

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Not worth the argument my friend. The guy and his friend are unable to back up their wild claims with anything other than useless and unfounded information. They make everything bigger in Texas including ......
 
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NHmaster

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brosnt1,
it's interesting to hear that an R53 can work in those cold clims. I wouldn't have guessed it due to water inlet temp. I told you "they" would jump you within 48 hours... only took "them" 24! Put them on ignore and life is good here. Surprised mngmt allows this to happen so easily.

Others:
Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met! But then again it's 73 degrees here in Texas and I got to drop the top to the Z3 and enjoy the fresh air. :cool:

Remember my friend, these forums are to educate and help folks make an informed decision. The out and out misinformation, misdirection and lies from you and your cohort are anything but helpfull. They probably won't allow it to go on much longer. I expect Mark to close this down at any time as well he should.
 

Ladiesman271

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He is apparantly better at finding obscure meanings than defending his views.

What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time? It's not "MY" code. It is the code. But like most diy hacks he refuses to obey the code and feels that "his" situation is different and therefore justifiable. No amount of cajoling (big word) or logical argument will sway him from his convictions. It's a lot like arguing with a racist skin head. WASTE OF TIME.



Q: What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time?

A: What is the test per "your code? Pressure and volume requirements? All fixtures on full blast simultaneously? Adequate for the use intended requirement? Just what does "your" code require?


This is the United States of America. There is no United States of America plumbing code. The plumbing code of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts applies to me, so that is my plumbing code. If you do not live in Massachusetts, you have to use "your" own applicable plumbing code.

The Massachusets plumbing code does not specify that you have to simultaneously test all fixtures turned to full volume. The only thing specified is the main water pipe size that is based on fixture demand factors and the building ulilization factor. Minimum pipe sizes for each fixture type are also specified.

I have hot water at every hot water fixture in my home. Flow rates are adequate for the intended use.


MA plumbing code trivia: A bidet requires a backflow device in the water supply. A dishwashing machine drain line is only required to have a high loop (AKA no air gap required). Plumbers not licensed as a plumber in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are not permitted to refer to any plumbing codes that do not apply to Massachusetts residents MGL Section 8.

Water pipe sizing



Water Pipe Sizing example taken from the Massachusetts Plumbing Code. The Massachsetts Plumbing Code is followed in Massachusetts. "Your" code may be different, but it does not apply to property located in Massachusetts!

ladiesman-01.jpg
 
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Ladiesman271

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Remember my friend, these forums are to educate and help folks make an informed decision. The out and out misinformation, misdirection and lies from you and your cohort are anything but helpfull. They probably won't allow it to go on much longer. I expect Mark to close this down at any time as well he should.


Another prevarication!

Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).

Water pipe sizing



Water pipe Sizing example that conforms to the MA Plumbing Code


ladiesman-01.jpg



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NHmaster

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How can I possibly argue with your brilliance. You are of course correct in every way and me, a licensed master plumber for 36 years, A plumbers apprentice teacher as well as a certified plumbers certification instructor has absolutly no idea what I am talking about.

Let's go through this one last time.

You have to provide continuous flow at continuous temperature to ALL FIXTURES, AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, Yes you do. Call the plumbing board. Ask them. They will tell you and you will still freekin argue the point. You can not have a residence where fixtures can only be run one or two at a time. Nor can the temperature at the fixtures fluctuate due to increased or decreased load. Yes Wally. That's what they pay us the big bucks for. Just because you bought into a load of crap don't make it so.
 

SewerRatz

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It always amazes me when people quote parts of the plumbing code and leave out other parts, or misquote it. For example I always hear "I live in southern Illinois we are not required to follow the plumbing code." or " We can do our own plumbing here with out getting permits or hiring a licensed plumber." No where in the Illinois code it says if you live in some rural area that you are allowed to do plumbing yourself or the way you feel is the right way. You may not have a permit office with the town you live in but the county does, and if they don't I bet the state does.

Other excuse I hear for not getting permits. " They only want to get more money from me. In reality I do not need a permit if I do the work myself." Again that is not true, they want you to get a permit so they can inspect the job and ensure it was put in a professional, proper and safe manor. There is a city here that requires you to get permits and requires you to have a licensed plumber and does not charge a dime for the permit.

I do get many phone calls of DIY's and handymen asking me if I can get the permit or let them use my license number so they can get a permit, and they will pay me a "fee". This is against the law as well. I refuse to put my license on the line like that.

As for the good of tankless water heaters and the idea they save space. It is all hype. When they first came out , the hype was "In Europe they are very commen. The US is so far behind technolgy." In Europe lots of people live in small homes or row homes that do not afford a lot of space for a tank, thats why they have a tankless unit hanging on their kitchen wall. Tankless water heaters properly sized can work and will work propelry sizing does not mean buying the biggest one and assumeing it will supply you all your hot water needs. In many cases in areas where the temputare rise is 70 degrees or higher you may need two tanks, and if the flow rate demand is to high for two units you may have to go to three units. About flow rates, when a home is built in any state and all states follow one of the three major codes out there which all require a minum presure during peak demand in the home.

Here is the one from Illinois:

Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System



a)Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.



b) Size of Water Distribution Pipes. The fixture supply for each fixture shall be at least the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table D. The size of all other water distribution pipes shall be determined by calculating the water supply demand (in water supply fixture units) for that portion of the water distribution system served by the pipe. Using Appendix A, Tables M, N, O, P and Q, the cumulative water supply demand or load shall be calculated for all fixtures, piping, valves and fittings served by the water distribution pipe, and the pipe shall meet the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table N or O, as applicable. Exception: As an alternative to using Tables M, N, O, P and Q to design and size the piping in the water distribution system, the system may be designed and sized employing current engineering practices, provided the design/plans are approved in writing by an Illinois licensed professional engineer, an Illinois licensed architect or an individual Certified in Plumbing Engineering (C.I.P.E.) by the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and approved in writing by the Department.



c) Minimum Water Pressure. The minimum constant water service pressure on the discharge side of the water meter shall be (at least) 20 p.s.i.; and the minimum constant water pressure at each fixture shall be at least 8 p.s.i. or the minimum recommended by the fixture manufacturer.​
 

NHmaster

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Good post and points, but it will surely be ignored.

Another thing about European plumbing is that often those small row houses have only a single bath and small kitchen. Codes in Europe are less strict also.

This whole argument has just plain reached the point of stupid. Untill the plumbing inspector knocks on their door both of these guys are going to continue spewing the same uneducated propaganda.
 

Redwood

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Another prevarication!

Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).

Laddyman,
Are you a licensed plumber in the state of Mass?
Was your installation performed by you in the state of mass?
 

Redwood

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Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.

http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm

Water heater maintenance

Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.

Hot water heater flushing

Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.

Odors

A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.

Temperature settings

The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.

DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.

White plastic particles

It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.

Laddy Man,

You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...

Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...

The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.

Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...

White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.
 
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Redwood

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Health hazards from a tank type water heater!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2094925

"There are two opposing risks when it comes to water temperature inside domestic water heaters; exposure to Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease (pulmonary legionellosis), and the risk of scalding. In 1986, this dilemma was the subject of an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal (1). A few months ago, Safe Kids Canada launched a media campaign aimed at preventing scalding by lowering domestic hot water temperature to 49°C at the tap (2). Among the means considered to reach this objective, Safe Kids Canada, with the support of some public health organizations, suggests and seems to favour lowering the temperature setting of domestic hot water heaters to 49°C."

"Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization (WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly, smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis."

More of the same here:

http://customer.honeywell.com/Water...revention/Legionella+in+Your+Home/Problem.htm

Key Facts

According to the CDC, Legionella bacteria has a broad range of potential growth. “Legionella bacteria exist in the biofilm on the inside of pipes. Legionella grows rapidly between 77°F and 108°F.†Although it may seem feasible to raise the water temperature to 140°F, this leaves the water in the scald temperature range.†(22)

The International Plumbing Code Section 424.4: states, “Shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be balanced pressure, thermostatic, or a combination of balanced pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. Valves shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120°F, which shall be field adjustable in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.†(22)

“When a residential water heater is used, the codes do not limit the temperature to 140F, so it is not uncommon to find water at 160 degrees F.†This temperature will scald a child with third-degree burns in only .25 seconds. (22)

How common is Legionella bacteria in my hot water tank?

“In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178 electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using fossil fuels were contaminated. The authors concluded that, because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot water in the home.†(28)

What are the affects?

Occurrences of Legionellosis have happened while people have been exposed to a infected water source and inhaled contaminated water: cooling towers, whirlpools, bathtubs, showers or even at a steamy faucet. Legionella has been shown to most greatly affect people whose immune system is low. For example in a hospital setting, patients that are most susceptible to Legionella infection include: cancer patients who are in radiation or chemotherapy treatments, organ-transplants, HIV, elderly and surgical patients. Severe Legionnaires’ disease has an overall mortality rate of 10% to 30% (1-3), and 30% to 50% of patients require admission to an intensive care unit (1-4) Additional source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

Now you have really outdone yourself in your twisting of facts and information resources. Your post is so full of incoherant ramblings of quoted misapplied information that a person reasonably educated could hardly understand it.

I propose that we bestow the title of "Google Boy" upon you.

This is a title that we give to those with a total lack of subject knowledge that manage to post "copy & paste" a long post that looks very knowledgable on the surface until a knowledgable person attempts to read the assembled drivel.


Simply put Legionella Bacteria is present in water. Usually in small quantities that have a miniscule chance of causing a problem. When water is stored at a temperature in the ideal growth range the small amount present can multiply.

The use of a tankless water heater will not do anything to the bacteria to kill it and infact if there is a recirculation system may keep it in the ideal growth range just like a tank type water heater.

The solution is simple for a tank type water heater and that is to raise the temperature in the tank to 140 degrees where the Legionella Bacteria will be killed then youe a tempering valve on the outlet to lower the temperature to 120 degrees for safe use.

There it is a few simple paragraphs that said more than all the drivel you posted...
Could it be that I know my subject matter and am qualified to post about it?
 
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Cass

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The county above me now requires the tank heaters to be set at 140 and have a tempering valve installed just like you said...they have been doing this for 2 years now...

Plumbers in Lebanon Ohio
 
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NHmaster

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Cass, when did Ohio adopt that ammendment? It has been floating around here for a couple years but has not yet come to an agreement. I personally think it is a good idea and anyone that has seen the video that Watts puts out would probably be in the same camp also.
 

Ladiesman271

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It always amazes me when people quote parts of the plumbing code and leave out other parts, or misquote it. For example I always hear "I live in southern Illinois we are not required to follow the plumbing code." or " We can do our own plumbing here with out getting permits or hiring a licensed plumber." No where in the Illinois code it says if you live in some rural area that you are allowed to do plumbing yourself or the way you feel is the right way. You may not have a permit office with the town you live in but the county does, and if they don't I bet the state does.

Other excuse I hear for not getting permits. " They only want to get more money from me. In reality I do not need a permit if I do the work myself." Again that is not true, they want you to get a permit so they can inspect the job and ensure it was put in a professional, proper and safe manor. There is a city here that requires you to get permits and requires you to have a licensed plumber and does not charge a dime for the permit.

I do get many phone calls of DIY's and handymen asking me if I can get the permit or let them use my license number so they can get a permit, and they will pay me a "fee". This is against the law as well. I refuse to put my license on the line like that.

As for the good of tankless water heaters and the idea they save space. It is all hype. When they first came out , the hype was "In Europe they are very commen. The US is so far behind technolgy." In Europe lots of people live in small homes or row homes that do not afford a lot of space for a tank, thats why they have a tankless unit hanging on their kitchen wall. Tankless water heaters properly sized can work and will work propelry sizing does not mean buying the biggest one and assumeing it will supply you all your hot water needs. In many cases in areas where the temputare rise is 70 degrees or higher you may need two tanks, and if the flow rate demand is to high for two units you may have to go to three units. About flow rates, when a home is built in any state and all states follow one of the three major codes out there which all require a minum presure during peak demand in the home.

Here is the one from Illinois:

Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System


a)Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.



b) Size of Water Distribution Pipes. The fixture supply for each fixture shall be at least the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table D. The size of all other water distribution pipes shall be determined by calculating the water supply demand (in water supply fixture units) for that portion of the water distribution system served by the pipe. Using Appendix A, Tables M, N, O, P and Q, the cumulative water supply demand or load shall be calculated for all fixtures, piping, valves and fittings served by the water distribution pipe, and the pipe shall meet the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table N or O, as applicable. Exception: As an alternative to using Tables M, N, O, P and Q to design and size the piping in the water distribution system, the system may be designed and sized employing current engineering practices, provided the design/plans are approved in writing by an Illinois licensed professional engineer, an Illinois licensed architect or an individual Certified in Plumbing Engineering (C.I.P.E.) by the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and approved in writing by the Department.



c) Minimum Water Pressure. The minimum constant water service pressure on the discharge side of the water meter shall be (at least) 20 p.s.i.; and the minimum constant water pressure at each fixture shall be at least 8 p.s.i. or the minimum recommended by the fixture manufacturer.




Dear Mr. Rat,

While your information may be important if one were going to design and install a water system in a residence in Illinois, the Massachusetts plumbing code applies in Massachusetts.

My residence conformed to the Massachusetts plumbing code when it was buillt, and still conforms to the Masachusetts plumbing code.

Please note that in Massachusetts, the calculated total number of hot and units is adjusted by the demand factor when pipe size is determined. For a single family residential, the demand factor is 50%, and not 100% (AKA simultaneous use) as the downeaster implied.

I assume that you simply "overlooked" that part of those "three" plumbing codes.:rolleyes:

Thank you for another canard!;)

Water pipe sizing



Water Pipe Sizing example that conforms to the MA Plumbing Code
ladiesman-01.jpg
 
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Ladiesman271

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How can I possibly argue with your brilliance. You are of course correct in every way and me, a licensed master plumber for 36 years, A plumbers apprentice teacher as well as a certified plumbers certification instructor has absolutly no idea what I am talking about.

Let's go through this one last time.

You have to provide continuous flow at continuous temperature to ALL FIXTURES, AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, Yes you do. Call the plumbing board. Ask them. They will tell you and you will still freekin argue the point. You can not have a residence where fixtures can only be run one or two at a time. Nor can the temperature at the fixtures fluctuate due to increased or decreased load. Yes Wally. That's what they pay us the big bucks for. Just because you bought into a load of crap don't make it so.




Thank you for that prevarication.


From the Massachusetts plumbing code:

(3) Principle NO.3 -- Hot Water Required. Hot water must be supplied to all plumbing fixtures which normally need or require hot water for their proper use and function.

Water pipe sizing



MA Plumbing Code Water Pipe Size Example

ladiesman-02.jpg

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SewerRatz

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About the 140 degree setting, here in Illinois they are talking about adopting that as well, and installing a tempering valve as well. They also noted that this will affect the code for tankless units, since the do not get the water hot enough to kill anything off.
 

Jadnashua

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Nashua, NH requires all new WH be installed with tempering valves. While they can't lock the thermostat at 140-degress, they'd like to.
 
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