Tankless-luke warm shower

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Redwood

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Will deal with downtime, if and when it happens. I hear Fedex has this thing called overnight shipping. May try it down here in the backwoods of Texas. :D

More FUD

I'll have to try that sometime with Kohler...
Thanks for the tip on FEDX....

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Sjsmithjr

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Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

More FUD. I thought you olive branch guys weren't into that.:eek: Besides, who fixes a DVD player these days and what's the turnaround time? My buddy that does that for a living tells me about 10 working days. If you think plumbers and electronics repair don't mix then please tell me how Joe Average and electronics mix? How many homeowners fix their own DVD players?

As for FEDEX...

DAY 1 - No hot water, what's the problem? Call the plumber, not the TV repair man.
DAY 2 - Supply house calls vendor, orders part.
DAY 3 - Vendor processes order.
DAY 4 - Part shipped.
DAY 5 - Part arrives; after all the repair calls have been scheduled and left for the day.
DAY 6 - Oops! That's Saturday. Time and half for Joe Average to get hot water restored on Day 6.

Of course, I could have hitched up the horse and rode into town and picked up the parts to fix my conventional hot water heater the same day.
 
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Jadnashua

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Nptice that the OP made one posting and never came back!

I'm here, reading your comments, and, my original post was to provide some basis for evaluating a tankless' operation. If you notice, I've got over 9000 posts...and am a moderator.

I was trying to explain that yes, you can use a tankless, and yes, they can work fine for your application, but, they have limitations, as does any solution. You need to understand what they can do, and their quirks. If you plan large volume simultaneous uses, you better have a huge gas line and a major flue for what may be multiple units ganged together. You can only get a certain amount of temperature gain as the water flows by. Most people don't have a feel for how big a unit you need to match your needs. By using the numbers I provided, you can see if the specs for the unit you are thinking about actually is blowing smoke, or has a basis in sound facts. If the spec sheet lists a 70-degree rise, but you don't need that because you live in Hawaii and your incoming water never gets lower than 60-degrees, you need someone to help you understand what you can actually get out of the thing...same thing if you live in Nome, Alaska, and it averages just over freezing most of the year.

Some people never use a tub and don't need to worry about trying to fill it in the middle of the winter. Some people regularly have 2-3 people taking a shower at the same time getting ready for work or school. Some people like a shower with 3-4 body sprays and a rain-shower head running, while doing the laundry and the dishes. So, the quantity of hot water reliably available can vary radically. If you are going to use any technology, you need to understand the properties to make the best choice. For me, since I have a very efficient modulating, condensing boiler, I've got an indirect. I've lived with tankless systems over the years, and yes, they are better now than they were.

If you make an intelligent, realistic assessment of your hot water use and the local water conditions (temp and hardness), you can then determine how big a unit you need.

The low-flow turn on point and flow restriction were significant turn-offs to me in practical use over the years. You may never experience that, but you should at least become aware of it rather than glossing over it in the specs and not understand the ramifications.

Most people don't have experience with this technology. It's not like going down to the car dealer and doing a test drive; typically, once you shell out your money, you own it, whether it works well or not when it comes to installing a tankless system. You can make some expensive mistakes. What I hoped to do with this thread was to provide some guidance on the pros and cons...sniping at responders does no good, and is kind of childish.
 

CarlH

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How many tankless water heaters control water temperature by cutting back flow rates? My particular water heater has a fixed rate flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm. That is greater than than the government mandated flow capacity of current model showerheads!

But can you run two showers simultaneously? Or a shower and something else?

Oh wait, you can do two showers at the same time. All you need is the right shower heads. Here's what you need:
http://www.speakmancompany.com/products/detail/S-2253-E15
or
http://www.waterpikecoflow.com/VBE-423/
or
http://www.deltafaucet.com/bath/details/75155.html

Do you have a small household or do you limit it to one shower at a time?

It is not uncommon for me to have two showers going at a time, but I'm on tank type.
 

Redwood

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How many tankless water heaters control water temperature by cutting back flow rates? My particular water heater has a fixed rate flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm. That is greater than than the government mandated flow capacity of current model showerheads!

Quite a few actually.
 

Redwood

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Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

You might be surprised as to the electronic qualifications some of us have...
We just like the money we make in plumbing....:cool:
 

Redwood

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Uh, Mod, I think you got the threads confused. This thread was a legit question by a new post on the forums. A the thread quickly denigrated to tankless bashing. I hope a few of us here can reverse this trend and offer some practical advice without quickly resorting to... BURN HER.

Your comments above and in another tankless thread are on target with regard to learning about the proper ownership of the technology in your home. I agree that EVERY technology out there has pro's and con's. Some can handle technology change and some can't.

BTW, called Apple today in need of a replacement battery for my notebook. Will be here tomorrow morn by 11:30am. That's service powered by Fedex!

And on the last note... THEY STARTED IT :D

YMMV when it comes to getting tankless parts...
 

SewerRatz

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Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

I can fix DVD players, computers, military radios. Heck I even can design electronic circuits and program computers.

Long long ago, back when there was a gaming system called the Oddessy II (shortly after pong) It came with a cartridge that let you write simple hex decimal code. Ever since I was hooked. I self taught myself basic electronics and a few programing languages. I then went into the Army as 29E which is Field radio repair, I aced the class. When I got home the electronics market was flooded with everyone wanting to be in it as well as computer programing and such. Everywhere I went for a job I was told Military training does not count I need to have a degree in electronics. I did eventually get a job in a shop designing test fixtures for an electronics shop to pretest and final test all the circuit boards they designed. Sadly I only got $6 bucks an hour. When my daughter was about to be born they only gave me a 25 cent raise, so I called my old man and told him I am coming to work for him in plumbing, and here I am.

Sorry about the tangent, but as Redwood said you will be surprised what us plumbers can do.
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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Since we are in the land of make-believe,


I get about 5-10 calls a year on tankless heaters that are in FAIL mode, meaning not working and the wife is considering divorce sooner than later. That's right you married men; odds are at 75% you're not ending your life with your mate, buy a tankless to shorten that time span. A true "leurve-tester" of sorts. LMFAO!!!


It's always the same, and they mentioned they've called every plumber in the book and they are more than frustrated at this point because the initial installer says, "We install them, we don't service them" and away he goes not answering the phone, ever again because he made his dime, why should he sit there for HOURS looking up PDF files and troubleshooting regs and error codes KNOWING the customer is going to expect this time for free, given the fact the consumer now thinks you built this device in your basement with a ball peen hammer and some wires, some copper tubing and a couple screws.

It's worth the loss of a customer at this point because they are now in the "I regret this buying decision" mode because not everyone can afford top of the line tankless heaters, and not everyone can install them themselves.

So, the person on the other end is heated, upset that he's been without hot water for days, not hours and the parts that were sent to him, weren't the right ones, or they didn't fix the problem.

Is this my fault? Are you going to hustle me down because you didn't check out what swayed you to begin with? Anytime I hear "bosch" and "tankless" in the same sentence, I start busting out laughing knowing you got stupid stamped on yo fo-head. :D

Ain't nuttin' I'm going to deal with, phone call is ending in 3, 2, 1.....click!



Has anyone with a brain figured out WHY the supply houses don't carry repair parts? You think they are going to let you pull parts off the display model? Oh wait, there's a G instead of a P in the serial number...won't work.

"Did you call the friendly tech support M-F 9-6 and WHAT!?!?!?! No weekends?!!?!?! Call back monday?!?!?!

Better call a plumber, maybe he knows someone who "has one of these laying around I can get a part off of."

Fat chance slim shady; you got a better chance rolling doobies for charity than thinking the world is going to stop for one second and fix your box of wonders hanging on the wall.


Like I said, it's make-believe...
 
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Dunbar Plumbing

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Greg, by no means, don't let me steal your thunder big guy,

I'm thinking how inefficient this heater was running for 12 years while you never even thought once about maintenance,

and can imagine that was like a car with two fouled plugs AND a hole in the gas tank, at the same time.

What you wasted in efficiency will never be recouped with your tankless. Most won't let plumbing go in disrepair to the extent your available pictures are showing.

The great thing is...tankless is going to make you a responsible user of plumbing/mechanical systems because you'll never get a tankless to operate like a German tank of a tank water heater performed, period.

I'd buy a BMW too just to polish the idea I'm on a new path to efficiency.


Psst, it's mid-life crisis dude no matter what :eek:
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Well put Rugged....

No one wants to have to

"pamper these things like babies"

they want someone else to pamper them,
becasue they dont have a clue and
usually .....for free....


I wonder how much energy that nasty old water heater with a blanket on it would have used all these years???
 

Sjsmithjr

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"We install them, we don't service them"

As a homeowner, I hadn't ever considered the possibility that I could purchase a product through an authorized installer, who obtained the product via an authorized wholesaler, and not have an authorized service technician available to work on it.

So I visited the customer support area on the Takagi website and low and behold: lot's of installers and wholesalers, but THERE IS NOT A SINGLE AUTHORIZED SERVICE TECHNICIAN IN THE STATE OF TENNESSEE. If it breaks, what is Joe Homeowner supposed to do? Fly in a technician from the one outfit in Austin that'll work on the thing? So I headed over to the Bosch website. There is only one installer/service technician in the whole state to service their tankless products! Lastly I visited the Rinnai website. There is an authorized dealer and service provider listed for Knoxville. One. Again, lots of installers, but only one outfit that is also authorized to service the product. I might add that there is no place listed for Joe Homeowner to legitimately purchase a Rinnai tankless.

So love 'em or hate 'em, I would suggest that the availability of parts, service, and the valdity of a DIY installation (if that's the way you want to go) be added that to the list of things for homeowners to check on before their purchase. I wonder what the present worth calculations would look like?
 
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Dunbar Plumbing

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Well I can't knock a homeowner for beating the rap of a plumber.

If it serves its purpose and doesn't kill innocent people in the process, then it shall be.

I'm not fond of people working on gas lines who have no experience dealing with these dangers.


Anyone still have that pex gas line picture? Thank god the mice didn't chew a hole in that!


Victims never know when they've gotten in over their head until it's too late. Then they talk about it.


I think there are numerous plumbers on this site that do a great job of protecting the consumer by pointing out the considerations of tankless units, and even though they don't make a public display of affection to this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Wouldn't a plumber encourage these things ten-fold given the money that can be made installing them?

Apparently some of us care enough to throw out the safeguards, realities of these things so you DO make an informed buying decision.

Consumer Reports did some real collateral damage a few weeks ago about tankless heaters and that has the followers all bent out of whack.

This should be expected.

If I was in Arizona, Texas, anywhere where the temperature is always warm , I'd have one of these units...but only if there was parts, service techs, and the guarantee that the product will be the same 4-8-14 years from now so I don't have to buy a complete new unit after 2 years.


Take a computer, or cell phone for example; Soon as you buy the latest fad, something else is in the works to make the next one better.
 

gregsauls

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Story time.

Story time...

Back many years ago I was both a Compaq and Apple dealer (late 80's-early 90's). While we were authorized sales and service providers (factory trained) on both lines of computer, overnight parts was a joke. Just as Rugged has eluded to. What we did to combat that problem and be "better than the guys across town", we would stock a "hot spare" machine of the key selling machines we put out. The "hot spare" machine was not our "loaner" but rather a "sacrificial lamb" in which when we needed a part be it power supply, logic board, hard drive, etc we would take it from the "lamb" and make a customer happy that SAME day. We blew the doors off the competion as we could make a customer happy the same day or at worst the next day, something the boys across town didn't catch on to for several years.

We were not "tricking the warranty system" as we only used part from the "lamb" to repair a customer who was in warranty in the first place. The new techs got the fun job of putting the "lamb" back together each week when the warranty replacement parts arrived. Yes is cost us to have about 4-5 "lambs" in stock for this purpose but we looked at it as CODB (cost of doing business).

Why tell the story? We'll if I was in the business of selling, installing and servicing tankless water heater systems, I would standardize on ONE brand I felt good about. I would have a couple units mounted in the shop and plumbed for testing and to use as "lambs". To much hassle you say??? Naaaa, here's why. Take Rinnia... they have 8 home models, 4 indoor, 4 outdoor. Rule out the outdoor units for most of you in the northern climates. Rule out the low end R54 and possibly the R75 for the same issues and you are down to two units to service for R94 and R98. Two "lambs" for a cost of about $2000. When you go out to service a customer under factory warranty or your own extended warranty, keep track of parts and the customers serial number but use a part from your "lambs" and then get your warranty parts back in for your "lamb". And you have a customer for life!

I'm sure the pro's here may come up with a 100+ ways to shoot holes in this, but if it worked in the past, it can work again. Things are only going to get more technology based, so figuring out how to work a system rather than get beat by it is key to survival.
 
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Redwood

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Two thoughts...
#1 Thanks to all who visited my blog, albeit to dig up dirt or learn about your enemy. Now click on an ad so I can get revenue!

#2 Thanks for helping me up my post count. It's fun! Really! No kidding!

What makes you think I was visiting your blog

I had Tribal Flood Network doing it for me.
It won't click on your ad either!
 

Redwood

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Well Greg your sacrificial lamb takes this well beyond you flogging that dead horse.

crack-pipe.jpg



I'm not going to have a flock of sheep hanging around for all the Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma, Bosch, Navien and Takagi units that malfunction in my area...
The poor owners of those units are just out of luck! They should have researched their purchase a little more!

BTW I don't fix DVD players!
I throw them in the trash and go down and spend $29.99 on a new one!
 

gregsauls

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I'm not going to have a flock of sheep hanging around for all the Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma, Bosch, Navien and Takagi units that malfunction in my area...
The poor owners of those units are just out of luck! They should have researched their purchase a little more!


Jeez dude, you really can't read a WHOLE post. I didn't say buy them all. Redwood, Rugged, etal... You can't seem to have a civil conversation on here with anyone on the tankless side.

You attack me, fine. You attack my tankless install, still fine. You attack my cars, getting weird but I let it slide. You make veiled comments about divorce due to tankless problems, that a threat to my wife and begins to cross a line. What's next, looking up the kids on my blog and attacking them too. Next call will be the sheriff dude. You lie when you say you didn't look at my blog.... I have proof!

Now go crawl back under the rock you came from jerk! I'm done with you.
 
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Redwood

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I can fix DVD players, computers, military radios. Heck I even can design electronic circuits and program computers.

Long long ago, back when there was a gaming system called the Oddessy II (shortly after pong) It came with a cartridge that let you write simple hex decimal code. Ever since I was hooked. I self taught myself basic electronics and a few programing languages. I then went into the Army as 29E which is Field radio repair, I aced the class. When I got home the electronics market was flooded with everyone wanting to be in it as well as computer programing and such. Everywhere I went for a job I was told Military training does not count I need to have a degree in electronics. I did eventually get a job in a shop designing test fixtures for an electronics shop to pretest and final test all the circuit boards they designed. Sadly I only got $6 bucks an hour. When my daughter was about to be born they only gave me a 25 cent raise, so I called my old man and told him I am coming to work for him in plumbing, and here I am.

Sorry about the tangent, but as Redwood said you will be surprised what us plumbers can do.

He He He... I did the electronics at Uncle Sam's Air Factory... Com/Nav/ECM on the planes... That's Communication/Navigation Radios, and Electronic Countermeasures... Then a couple of bad hearing tests got me off the flightline and I cross trained to plumbing...

redwood-raven.jpg


The tunes he played rendered an adversary blind, deaf, & dumb...
No phones, Radio, TV, Radar. All he knows is the bombs are falling.

redwood-11.jpg



Here is a pic of 3 invisible planes and the music man.
 
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Dunbar Plumbing

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PSSSt.... you got this off my blog... So don't lie when you say you never visited it. Any more threats you wish to hurl? Hello 911....:mad:



Good grief man,


It's me, RUGGED, not Redwood.


Don't shoot! DON'T SHOOT! I don't have a gun, seriously and I was at your site....how else would of I pulled that heater pic?


I was going to compliment your statement after mine about how you worked with that equipment to keep the customer happy. That is a good design and I rip apart good products at my shop to do just that; keep the customer happy and have access to parts when I readily need it...not over a period of days that can have the customer looking for a faster result.


I applaud that method but in the world of tankless right now, that could be some really expensive moves, especially if you're not putting in a lot to start with. Remember that these are 1 in a 100, 1 in a 1000 in the neighborhood for most, unless it became a group thing and an entire street followed/rode the wave.


G'd dammit the internet police are knocking on my door.


towelwhip.gif
 
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