Styrofoam in tank

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by guy48065, Sep 27, 2013.

  1. guy48065

    guy48065 Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    SE and north MI
    I have a standard flush Toto toilet that has a foam liner in the tank. This is a new thing to me--is it to reduce water capacity or to prevent sweating? I recently replaced the original fill valve with a Fluidmaster and it was a VERY close fit between the float & foam.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    It is an anti sweating feature.
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    A better valve would have been the Korky MaxPerformance. It fills the bowl without overfilling it.
    The Fluidmaster 400A will waste a lot of water every time you flush.

    What you have is a ST743SD insulated tank. It's about sweating.
  4. guy48065

    guy48065 Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    SE and north MI
    OK I looked up the Korky and it looks like that the toilet came with. Definitely would have chosen it if it had been available at the hardwares I checked. Next time...
    Can you expand on the waste comment? To me any water that goes into flushing the toilet serves a useful purpose ;-)
  5. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Location:
    New York, NY
    They have the Korky 528MP valve that Terry recommends at every Lowe's and most Ace Hardware's. They don't have this model at HD, and the Korky valve that they do have at HD doesn't refill the bowl enough.

    Your "funny" comment about water and flushing is really, really wrong in this case. The waste Terry is talking about is the refill water that just runs out of the bowl and serves no purpose whatsoever. Here's why: every toilet bowl has a natural water level. Any water (or urine or whatever) that you deposit in the bowl displaces other water and causes the balance to run down the drain. When the flush cycle has completed and the toilet bowl is full and has settled to its natural level, any liquid you dribble in will cause a corresponding amount to dribble right out. You can see on the diagram below where the water in the bowl levels out at the "weir" of the trapway. Anything that you add to the bowl will cause that water to flow over the weir, down the trapway, and out the bottom of the toilet. (When you flush, you put a lot of water in there are once, so the entire trapway fills like a straw and a siphon is created that sucks the entirety of what's in the bowl out, then the siphon breaks with a gurgle when the bowl is empty, then it starts refilling.)

    [​IMG]

    SO...water saving toilets have the refill percentage (the portion of the water coming into the tank that is diverted through the rubber refill hose and down the overflow riser to refill the bowl following the evacuation portion of the flush) carefully-calibrated to have the bowl fill just to its natural level exactly at the time the tank fills and shuts off. That way, no water just runs down the drain for no reason while the tank continues to fill. The Korky 528MP valve lets you set it so that it duplicates the manufacturer's calibration of that refill percentage. The 400A doesn't. So, a perhaps-not-insignificant amount of water is going to continue to run into the bowl after it refills to its natural level, then dribble over the weir of the trapway, and be wasted down the drain, accomplishing nothing.

    By the way, the spec sheet, parts list, instructions, etc., for your toilet are all available on the Toto web site. www.totousa.com Look up either CST744SD (elongated bowl) or CST743SD (round bowl) for the complete toilet. They both use the same tank, which, as Terry said, is the ST743SD insulated tank.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  6. guy48065

    guy48065 Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    SE and north MI
    I'm sorry if my "humor" was "wasted" on you.

    I understand what you're saying but it's a matter of degree, isn't it? Anyone who waters their lawn (I don't) will waste more water in one day than my toilet will all year. Yeah--I'm not very green, not PC, don't believe in global warming. Just an old country curmudgeon.

    My ACE didn't have Korky.
  7. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Location:
    New York, NY
    Some ACEs suck, I guess. Like the one in my town on Long Island. Horrible place. But they have Korky. I think your Ace should be able to order it if you decide to get one in the future. But you can order it from Lowe's online a lot quicker, I would think, if you don't have a Lowe's near you.
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,130
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I've seen Fluidmaster fill valve empty 2 gallons down the drain "after" the flush has taken place. Just a slow trickle of water down the drain that adds to the water bill, but does nothing for the flush.
  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,432
    Location:
    IL
    I use a pinch clamp on my Fluid Master bowl filling tube. The main reason is that I have a FluidMaster "Flush 'n' Sparkle" in series that dispensed a surfactant down the overflow tube after each flush. I don't want to lose too much of my cleaner from the cartridge.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    The pinch tube works :)
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The goal for any toilet refill valve is to refill the tank at exactly the same time that the bowl is full. This is how the factory (if they want to claim any sort of eco status) sets up the thing on the line when produced. Aftermarket refill valves, unless they have an adjustment, can often end up overfilling (or underfilling, which affects performance) the bowl. Overfilling the bowl has no performance advantage.
  12. guy48065

    guy48065 Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    SE and north MI
    I hate to revive this thread but I was up at the cottage this weekend and took the tank lid off to watch the Fluidmaster valve work. I had the float adjusted so the valve cut off when the water level was right at the old fill line--and about 1/2" below the overflow tube. When the valve is filling the tank it shuts off completely at this fill line and the water from the little hose cuts off at the same time. The water level in the bowl is a little short of the old stain so I assume it's under the weir.

    This certainly looks like it's working as it should. How is it wasteful?
  13. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    1,898
    Location:
    New York, NY
    It may be that your flavor of 400A has a refill ratio that is designed for older toilets. Back then, they usually set the thing at 20%, which would overfill the bowl. Today's Totos require between 35-40% refill in most cases. That would explain why you're below the old stain and thus the weir. The toilet wants to start with the bowl full, so if you see any performance issues, then you want to raise the refill ratio a bit until the bowl is full right when the water cuts off in the tank.
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    2,432
    Location:
    IL
  15. guy48065

    guy48065 Member

    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    SE and north MI
    Looks like that could be be useful with other brands as well. Now that I know of the overfill issue I've noticed the toilets where I work continue to shoot water down the overflow for nearly 20 seconds after the level in the bowl has stopped rising.
  16. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,898
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Me, too. Once one knows how it all works, it's hard to watch that water just be wasted for no reason.

    As to that Fluidmaster slider-dealy, I installed that in a toilet with a 400A in it, and it isn't that reliable at maintaining a specific flow ratio. I took it out and replaced the 400A with a Korky 528MP, which has a continuously-adjustable refill ratio that stays in place and is reliably-consistent.
  17. JerryR

    JerryR Member

    Messages:
    251
    Location:
    Florida
    Ace Hardware has the Korky 528MP available online for $13.99 with free pick up at local store. It's adjustable for fill rate of 0-40%.
    http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=20719616

    You can still order it, replace the one you recently installed. That way you can custom tune the fill rate to your toilet to get max flush and no waste.

    It's cheap enough. Just a thought
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