sizing new pressure tank and CSV for use with Clack air injector prior to softner

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by gojoe3, Apr 17, 2013.

  1. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    I thought of the water heater tank also, but they are not cheap anymore. The benefit of using one is that with some models you can add an additional anode and yes, I always change out the draincock. The problem is that we're back to having a waterlogged tank with no air. I did not understand why I needed that anyway, I thought I just needed a tank to precipitate the iron out prior to it getting to the bladder P tank. Why can't I just use a spin down sediment filter after the injector prior to the P tank, like this http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/spin-down-filter-strainers.html ? Is it because the iron doesn't get fully oxidized by the injector? Does the oxidized iron still need contact time to precipitate out?
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I don't know how much iron you have to begin with nor do I know what percentage of the pump cycle your injector draws air or how much air. Most injector makers say that they need to draw air for at least half of the pump cycle. Then the water from the other half of the cycle needs to co-mingle with the aerated water in the retention tank for a period of at least 2 minutes, so the flow rate is a factor.

    My 30 gallon precipitation tank has a drawdown capacity of 6.6 gallons but the total water capacity I'm unsure of. It tops out at about half-full so that could be 15 gallons. Some day I should measure it. So, if I draw off 6.6 gallons from 15, that would be 8.4 on the low side. Worst case, 2 minutes of contact time would mean a flow rate of 4.2 GPM if my math is right.

    Gary tells me that I don't have enough contact time, that I should use a contact tank with a top exit. I have some iron bleed through my iron filter to my softener which fouls the resin. I've taken a water sample after the iron filter to my dealer for testing and he could not detect any iron so either none bled through at the time I drew the sample or his test failed to detect it. I read that some tests don't detect ferric, only ferrous iron.

    The amount of iron in my water would clog an element type filter quickly.
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Sorry, I missed your first question. The precipitated iron is so sticky that it would clog and not wash off a spin-down filter. The stuff is like baby shit on a mohair blanket.

    Also, the particle size is still too small to not go through the filter. It is just because that it clumps together that it can be trapped in a media bed type filter and then too, only if you don't exceed the service flow rate. For a larger SFR, you also need a much larger backwash rate. BW rate is double the SFR.
  4. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    Deadhead? What does that mean?

    I'm getting overwhelmed, I really appreciate all your and others suggestions and ideas but unless someone talks me out of it, I'm just going to go out and pickup an 81 gallon WX-255 for $600 and throw on a new tee package including a 40/60? 50/70? switch for $150. Cut the 1" pvc supply, pull out the injector, clean it, add a couple of pvc unions to a section of pipe with the injector flanked by two air gauges and a new 1-1/2" spin down filter, and drop it back in-line. Now I'll be able to determine the pressure drop across the injector pre P tank. I'll also be able to pull the injector to clean it and I can take the whole assembly and throw it into a similar setup post P tank, for testing. Then all I'll have to do is buy a CSV, ask valveman where to put it, throw it in, cross my fingers and see if it works. Oh yeah and someday down the road replace my undersized contact/retention tank with something more suitable, and see how it works both pre and post P tank.

    Any opinion on whether or not to use the 1" check valve that comes with the new tee assembly? My existing tee setup has one on it. I don't know if the well pump has one, and I'm not going to pull it to find out. Is there a way to test if there is one and if it's working?

    Thanks for all your advice and for all the brainstorming. If money and space were not an issue I'd really enjoy building a primo system with testing flexibility in order to help myself, and others with similar water issues, check out different options.
  5. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Dang, missed that Q as well. Think of the precipitation process kind of like making butter. It takes time for the tiny particles to glob together.
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Sorry to throw so many details at you. If the head on a pump exceeds its capability to move water, it will deadhead. At some point it cannot move more water so cannot make more pressure above its designed head. When it deadheads, it just heats the water in the pump.

    Early on in one of your threads, I suggested that you plot the curve of your pump. That will tell you how many GPM the pump can produce at what PSI. The PSI is the artificial head. The real head is the level of water in the well. the injector can also add some head.
  7. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    I'm sorry. All of this makes total sense. So, I see your point about the spin down filter being useless at this location.
    My last water test showed 0.19 mg/L

    I understand that I could and should build a more effective system. I can't afford to do so at this time.
    I thought there might be a less expensive, simpler solution.
  8. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68

    I did not realize that. I just thought that once it was oxidized it became filterable.
  9. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    Yes, I printed that reply and was going to test for that info, but thought the outcome would be incorrect because of the current state of my system.
    The Bad P tank.

    I'd really like to know what GPM my pump can produce both with and without the injector.
    Do you think I can still plot a true pump curve with a malfunctioning P tank?
  10. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    off topic question

    how are you able to quote just a portion of someones reply?
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    When plotting the curve, the water is neither going into, nor leaving the tank so the condition of the tank is not a factor.
  12. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I delete what I don't want to quote from in between the [QUOTE] tags.
  13. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

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    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Just catching up. My opinion, for what its worth? I would not use a CSV unless you change to a system like the Sulfur Eliminator that does its thing in the well. If you have to inject air after the pump, I would not use a CSV, and would not have a bladder tank first thing after the injector. I think when you pull the old bladder tank out, you will see it is plugged up as LL says, and you won’t want to go back the same way.
  14. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    Thanks for your opinion valveman.

    I will be installing a new 81 gallon Well-x-trol with my plumber, in the next day or two.

    I've ordered the Sulfur Eliminator Deluxe from Mitch and will hook it up when I receive it. He was very helpful and took the time to answer all my questions.
    He modified the unit to work with my application since I will be testing it before permanently installing it.
    BTW, for others reading this, I do not have a Sulfur problem, I am using it to address the Iron in my water.
    He said I would need to adjust it to do heavy aeration for the first week or so, monitor the filter it comes with and change it out.

    I'll be removing the existing Clack air injector, which precedes the new pressure tank, and will be temporarily replacing it with a (4 x 10) 30 micron inline filter.
    The GE filter is rated at 10 GPM, my well pump produces approx. 10 GPM, so I don't expect it to restrict the flow very much.

    The reason for the addition of the inline filter is because the Sulfur Eliminator is expected to clean up iron deposits on the well casing and "stir up" stagnant water, so I need to prevent most of that gunk from entering my system. It will be interesting to monitor the inline filter to see if the sediment gradually declines as the well gets cleaned up. Temporarily, the supply water for the Eliminator will be from an exterior spigot, near my well head, which is post pressure tank. Hopefully it will work as claimed and I will install a spigot (hydrant?) on the main line near the well cap prior to the pressure tank. Then I'll be talking to you about a CSV.

    I am considering ordering a Hach Iron test kit (IR-18A) to better analyze the performance of the Eliminator over my existing air injector system.

    If for some reason this fails to address my Iron issues then I will be considering the other options suggested.
    BTW, Mitch said if it doesn't work, then send it back.
  15. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I wish iron filter manufacturers came with a money back guarantee. I'm sure that I have way too much iron for the Sulphur Eliminator. Unfortunately my dealer doesn't have a test kit (nor do I) that works with iron after it has gone through aeration.

    My dealer is trying to sell me on an Excalibur iron filter so that I can eliminate the air injection that robs me of pressure and flow. I tried to get technical documents on how they do the aeration without the inherent problems that my micronizer has. What I got was an explanation in an email reply instead. Purportedly, they use only the backwash cycle to inject the air, not the service mode. They then spray the water through the captured air during the service mode, replenishing the air on the next backwash cycle. I still have concerns about contact time, since it is done immediately before the filter media.
  16. gojoe3

    gojoe3 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    It isn't really a money back guarantee, but they gave me 30 days to try it out.

    How much Iron do you have?

    Hach has a variety of Iron test kits, all except one are for Ferric Iron (post oxidation) the choice of kits depends on the amount of Iron you want to test for.
    http://www.hach.com/metal-in-water-test-kits/category-products?productCategoryId=14371222290&secondPageNumber=1&pimContext=USen

    Why not give Excalibur a call directly and ask to speak to their tech dept., looks like they're in your neck of the woods. Here's the link to their Iron filters and there's a link for their contact info there http://www.excaliburwater.com/iron_sulphur_filters_residential.htm . I actually just gave them a call and spoke with Sam who seemed very knowledgeable. They use the Clack (air injection) valve.

    I have been looking at the Fleck AIO (air injection) valves, as an alternative to my current system. I was/am considering using one of their valves, either the 5600SXT AIO or the 2510 SXT AIO as a substitute for the 5600 basic valve on my current pH neut tank setup, as a way to oxidize the Iron post pressure tank versus before it, as I do now with the Clack injector. I would probably need to replace the tank with a larger one for some aerospace. I spoke with a teck at Fleck to ask if I could simply reconfigure my existing valve. He said I should call and ask the inventor and gave me his phone number. This all started (my search for iron removal options) because many say I shouldn't use the injector before a bladder type P tank. BTW, personally, for my Iron content, I think it would be fine to use the air injector prior to the P tank as long as one would drain it down to flush out any iron sediment regularly, say quarterly. Unfortunately, I did not know that I needed to clean my P tank that often. It was on it's last legs anyway. It lasted 20 years, and I installed the injector 5 years ago.

    I am hoping that the Sufur Eliminator Deluxe (SED) will work for my minimal? 0.19 mg/L of Iron, because I would like the option of using a CSV with my system for summer lawn watering and valveman has stated that I can't use their CSV with an inline air injector. One downside of the SED, is that I will need to monitor its inline filter which will be located outside in my well head containment area, which will mean removing 3-4" of dirt/mulch, lifting a 2" x 36" diameter concrete lid and jumping down into a 3'-0" deep pit, annually . The other downside is that it constantly runs at 1.5? GPH to do its job recirculating the aerated water it makes. The other downside is the cost for that little deluxe contraption.

    I'm still waiting for my plumber to come help install my new P tank. Hope my well pump hangs in there.
    After the new P tank install I will test for Iron with my current setup (injector pre P tank) and then I'll do the SED temporary install and will monitor the Iron. Then I will have the pH neut tank valve and softener valve serviced by a newly referred company.
    I have purchased (as advised by dittohead) new, correctly sized, parts for my Fleck 7000 softener valve to replace the incorrectly sized ones in my 5 year old softener and will adjust (per dittohead and others) the salt settings for better efficiency.
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