Should I install mixer valve? sweating toilet

[Jadnashua]

He was referring to a pump to keep hot water in the area. Doing this on its own might solve your problem, since unless you have a dedicated return line, the thing pushes water from the hot line into the cold line, which eventually runs back to the WH tank. The system consists of a pump, a check valve, and a control that turns the pump on or off. It is used to keep the water in the hot line from cooling off in between uses. If it doesn't have a dedicated return line, it warms up the cold water , and that might be enough on its own to keep the toilet from sweating. If it wasn't and you had one installed, you'd still gain from having hot water when you wanted.

Another alternative is to put a small tank under the sink to provide hot water quicker there; then, you don't have to keep circulating water around. It would be insulated better than your pipes, and you'd have a fairly constan hot water source.

 

[Mikey]

Jim was close; actually I was talking about an on-demand circulating pump. I've got a couple of "chilipepper" appliances (http://www.chilipepperapp.com/), one at each end of the supply manifold that runs the length of the house (about 75'). These connect to both the hot and cold lines, and when triggered by a pushbutton, they pump water from the hot side into the cold side until the water reaches a settable temperature. This brings hot water to this point, and also warms up a small quantity of cold water as the warming hot side is returned to the cold side.

Plumbing your toilet with this kind of device in the system would be an interesting exercise, with several options.

The small WH at the toilet is also an interesting option -- do they make a 1.6 gallon tankless WH? Another option would be to buy a cheap immersion heater (like they use for aquariums/aquaria -- http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/set.../TPheaters.htm --) and leave it in the tank. Pray that it doesn't short out .

 

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[Plumber1]

I have to remind you that a thermostatic tempering valve would be much better. That's the only way I would go if it were my toilet.

 

[Molo]

Hi again,

Thanks for the input everyone, I'm still forming an understanding of this subject. I'm interested in the thermostatic tempering valve that Plumber1 mentioned. Any more info on these?

Thanks alot,
Molo

 

[Jadnashua]

What you want is to add warm water to the tank, or at least warm enough so it is above the dew point. A tempering valve will work fine if the water in the hot line is warm enough. Problem is, it might be the same as the cold water line, depending on the way the pipes are run and how long it has been since you ran hot water. That is why I thought of a circulation pump, it keeps the hot water line charged with hot or at least warm water when activated (this could be on a timer, by using a demand momentary timed activation, or with an on/off switch). Unless you have a dedicated return line, the thing works by pumping the cooled off water in the hot line through a bypass into the cold water line until you've got hot where the sensor is, the timer runs out, or you turn off the switch depending on how you have it set up.

If your water line doesn't have to run very far, the hot water won't be far away, and there'll be enough to actually raise the water out of the tempering valve above the dew point. But, if it is a long run, or the pipes run along a wall where they can cool off a lot, even with a tempering valve, it may not get above the dew point.

They make small electric hot water tanks that will easily fit under a typical vanity. This would supply hot water instantly, making the tempering valve always have a supply to raise the water temperature above the dew point. It would also make it so you'd have immediate hot water at the vanity near the toilet rather than having to run the water for awhile. You wouldn't need to have it set very high, say maybe 105 or so which would limit the radiation loss.

Keep in mind that on a hot humid day, the dew point can be at or very close to room temperature. If you ran a dehumidifier or an a/c, that would lower the dew point, and minimize the problem.

I'd try it with just the tempering valve, then decide if anything else was needed. The circulation system might make hot water use at the rest of the house quicker and more pleasant.

 

[Verdeboy]

Another Link

Here's another link to "sweaty" toilet tank remedies.

http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/ToiletSweats.htm

 

[Molo]

Becoming a Sweaty Toilet Expert!

OK,
I'm going to get toi the bottom of the sweaty toilet subject! Thanks for the links Verde. I'm wondering now if I can avoid a new toilet, mixervalves, mini hot water tanks, etc. Is it true, that I can get a tray to put under the tank and catch the condensing water? I'm sure this would be easy to fabricate, then I'd have to decide where I could drain it.


Sweating it,

Molo

 

[Mikey]

Let's see... you've got a container of water near a toilet. Where might you drain it ?

 

[Molo]

Bowl sweats too!

I dont think a tray will work, because the bowl sweats too! So, I'm back to the mixer valve or a different toilet.

Molo

 

[Mark H.]

This may or may not be of any help. Indoor condensation (and therefore mold) is a huge issue for homeowners in our area, although our summer temperatures are usually in the mid-60s and rarely reach 80 degrees. One of the things that helped us a lot was to install "real" air exhaust systems in both bathrooms. You mount the air pumps in the attic (using a bicycle tire to insulate them from structural members so that you don't hear them running), and vent them to the outside as usual. The in-ceiling variety of exhaust fan you see everywhere is basically useless in a humid environment.

And from having partially flooded three times in the last 11 years, we've learned that air movement is the key to drying things out. Heat doesn't really help and it increases mold growth, and even a commercial dehumidifier can only do so much (and dehumidifiers cost a fortune to run). An ordinary fan, however, is very effective at keeping things dry.

Good luck, Molo. I look forward to reading about the solution that works for you.

Best wishes,

Mark H.

 

[Molo]

Mark, Does it have to vent to attic?

Can i vent the thing your talking about out the side of the house? I would have to run any vent hose through the floor above to get to the attic.

Thanks, Molo

 

[Jadnashua]

If the humidity is high outside, just blowing air through the house isn't going to dry it out much. It is only if the humidity in the house is higher than that outside where it makes a big difference. Now, moving enough air might make you feel cooler, and it will help a little. The humidity added by cooking or bathing is best removed at the point of generation...size the vent large enough and let it run long enough to get the humidity at least as low as it is outside. A stove vent that doesn't exhaust outside is a grease trap, but does nothing much for odors or anything for moisture and, in my opinion, is mostly cosmetic, and almost useless.

But, if you live somewhere hot and humid, unless you remove the moisture, while enough people are flushing the toilet to keep it cool, it won't keep it from sweating - the water needs to be in there long enough to warm up above the dew point and then the moisture to evaporate. WIth any kind of frequent use, it will just stay wet all day unless you warm up the water before putting it in the tank.

 

[Mark H.]

Hi Molo,

You can vent through the wall, but it might be noisy since you'd be creating a hole to the outdoors and your air pump would be right there on the other side of the wall. Perhaps that's not the best solution. I think you're back to warming your inlet water.

Jim, I don't understand the physics of it, but blowing air around actually dries out soaked carpets, etc., even when it is raining outside. It's totally counter-intuitive (at least to me), but it works.

Good luck, Molo and best wishes,

Mark H.

 

[Plumber1]

The more I read molo's comments I think he needs to repair the darned toilet.

 

[Molo]

hi plumber1

Haste makes waste, and there is no condensation problem right know because it's autumn/winter. I'm just trying to find the right solution, and do it right the first time. Anyway, this will be a good threrad for people to refer to in the future, so that they can learn about this common problem.

Molo

 

[Plumber1]

Well, thank you for your persistence. I'm sure it helped others, but your question does comes up regularly....

 

[Molo]

Wait till summer

I'm going to install the mixer valves and won't know till next summer if they work, (unless i create a controlled high humidity environment in the bathroom). Time will tell.

Thanks all,
Molo

 

[Dircom]

mixing valve a waste of energy and water

Get something like a Niagara Conservation Toilet. No tank sweating.