Resin spilling out at backwash cycle in Culligan WS

[ByteMe]

" a system with csv couldn’t deliver efficiently"

Please define what you mean by this. The situation you describe is exactly where a CSV is good.

Please understand that a water pump that is restricted down in output will use LESS electricity.

Variable speed water pumps are not nearly as efficient as many believe. You have to look at the pump curves to see this.

Here is a link that has a ton of good info.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html

 

[pho]

Before answering mr Byte me, let me tell the good new:
Last night the WS has recycled and no resin is spilled out. As indicated by a member, we should notify to the forum about the result of the suggestions. Let me add also that once a member has spend the time to write it down for you and you read it, you should say thanks. Again, thanks for offering lot of suggestions.

Now back to the pump efficiency.
Efficiency is defined as the output received divided by the input supplied. With electrical heat from a resistance, assume you get 990 watt output of heat while you spend 1000w of power, the efficiency is 990/1000= 99%. For conventional electric motor from 1-4hp, it is ~80%. For the new type of motor driven by the inverter technology (in the split system or new refrigerator) with square wave instead of the sine wave, the efficiency is much higher.
I know a little bit more about electricity, motor and not expert in flow dynamic nor in pump.
If a csv is set at 50 psi, the water pressure before the cvs and outside of the pump is high once you restrict its flow. With the pump impeller rotating without being able to push out the water, the rpm could be slower and making the pump and motor hotter. Since the pump electric motor is supposed to run at a certain rpm, any extra torque slowing it down more than the allowed specs will increase the current consumption, increase the heat and decrease its efficiency a lot. There are plenty of curves, diagrams for pump specs that I've studied before I installed my pump in 1998 besides checking my neighbors' pump performances. A 1 hp would takes 4 or 5 times to fill a tank compared with a 2hp, so the efficiency is not linear.
Here are the numbers for my 2hp at the bottom of the lake:
Case 1: Water pumped into the cistern.
gpm= 40, Head THD= 120'.
GPM x TDH / 3960 = 40*120/3960=1.21 WHP (Water Horse Power)
Case 2: Water pumped into the storage tank with pump switch set at 40-60. Use the average 50 psi
gpm=10, Head THD=120'.
GPM x TDH / 3960 = 10*120/3960=0.30 WHP (Water Horse Power)

Extracting the heat out of the pump motor is important too. My neighbor installs his 1st pump laying at the bottom of the lake without any casing. The motor is on/off often because the surrounding water although at 60 degree could not cool it down. The pump has to sit inside a pvc casing so the intake water goes around the motor to cool it before being drawn into the pump. Well amateurs like us has to learn the hard way. Hiring an experienced plumber working on pump is very expensive.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

If a csv is set at 50 psi, the water pressure before the cvs and outside of the pump is high once you restrict its flow.

The surprising thing is that a centrifugal pump facing a flow restriction consumes less power. It will draw less current. It will have a lower power factor. I understand that this differs from common expectations.

The unrestricted pump is going to pump more gallons. The restricted pump will pump fewer GPM and will need to pump longer. So due to the longer run time for a given number of gallons, the restricted pump will draw less power and consume more energy per gallon. Power is not the same as energy.

You will also find that for a house, the energy consumed for a pump is a very small part of the electric bill for those using commercial power. Work out some example calculations at 13 cents per KWH and you will see.

 

[ByteMe]

First, good job on stopping the resin leakage.

"If a csv is set at 50 psi, the water pressure before the cvs and outside of the pump is high once you restrict its flow. With the pump impeller rotating without being able to push out the water, the rpm could be slower and making the pump and motor hotter. Since the pump electric motor is supposed to run at a certain rpm, any extra torque slowing it down more than the allowed specs will increase the current consumption, increase the heat and decrease its efficiency a lot."

The above quote is not accurate. Restricting a water pump reduces the current consumption. Very counter intuitive, I know.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html

Austin from that site (he is here sometimes also), can help explain this better than I ever will. I had to look at the pump power curves to actually see how it works.

 

[pho]

Thank you Mr Reach4. If I've time, I will measure the amp at my booster pump at different flow condition and will let you know.
I've another problem and hope some suggestions . I will keep in the same topic instead of starting a new thread.
I've trouble removing the canister from my large dual Pura water filter (20"*5" , 1 canister for filter, 1 for UV). The canister has to be tighten hard so it won't leak.
Lately, I've broke my wrench by removing it the wrong way. I've bough a new plastic wrench as the original (Pentex SW4) and it is impossible to remove the canister. Of course, the water pressure has to be released.
I don't know if there is any alternative beside buying a steel wrench for $26.0 online. Help...Help
Superb Wrench SPBW-2 Heavy Duty Metal Water Filter Wrench For Big Blue Housings

 

[ByteMe]

Tighten hard to not leak?!?

Shouldn't need to be that tight. Suggest looking for defects in plastic and use a new o-ring.

I use to run a RO unit at 115psi, with barely finger tight.

 

[Reach4]

I've trouble removing the canister from my large dual Pura water filter (20"*5" , 1 canister for filter, 1 for UV). The canister has to be tighten hard so it won't leak.
Lately, I've broke my wrench by removing it the wrong way. I've bough a new plastic wrench as the original (Pentex SW4) and it is impossible to remove the canister. Of course, the water pressure has to be released.

I have Pentek Big Blue 4.5 x 20 housings. Probably similar. It is important to have extra O-rings handy-- especially in my case, because I was foolish enough to not put in a bypass in case my filter started leaking. Also, lightly lubricate the O-rings each time with silicone grease or release compound. I use Molykote-111, which is stiffer than most. A little goes a long way. I wear nytril gloves when spreading the lube. Do not use Vaseline on O-rings because that can make them swell. If they swell/enlarge, you will not be able to reuse. Get some spares.

The wrench is supposed to be for loosening and not tightening, tho I guess you might give it a little bit (1/8 turn?) of a boost because your housing is in an awkward position to apply torque by hand. If a new lubed O-ring does not fix the leak, get a new housing.

 

[pho]

It leak when I bough it and the seller deliver new o ring bit it doesn't help.
I am thinking about using a large plumber wrench with big jaws and worry about braking the canister.
With a pressure so hi, I guess your RO has a pump and doesn't need to back wash 1 gallon for each gallon used.
What is the brand and how much do u pay for it ?
My bro in laws who works for the Swiss Epa told me that RO is not good since it removes all the minerals. It is said that the water from RO is so pure that it becomes an oxidant which is not good for our body
My plumber says that RO water reacts with copper and used a pex tubing from the RO to my fridge water supply.

 

[ByteMe]

Yes, my RO had a booster pump, Aquatech 8800 if I remember correctly.

I did not change the flow restrictor, I think it was 3 to one, wasn't enough water to concern me. No "backwash" with my RO.

I have read that the average human gets less than .1% (point one percent) of some of the minerals from the water they drink.

RO or more clean/pure water is more aggressive (not corrosive). Water wants to be dirty. It will "leech" anything it can. With that said, RO water will not shorten the lifespan of copper tubing in any meaningful way.

I think I'd use PEX over any other type of tubing anyways.

RO unit, 5 stage with permeate and electric pump with controls was like $450 -- I forget, I pieced it together overa few months.

 

[pho]

Thank you all.
I've been able to make a long handle with 2 pieces of plywood, 1 piece carved by a router to sink the old handle wrench and I've been able to remove the canister.
I will buy Molykote-111 later, meanwhile I spay silicone on the seal and it help. I've to tighten the canister, but not as hard as before.

 

[Reach4]

I will buy Molykote-111 later, meanwhile I spay silicone on the seal and it help. I've to tighten the canister, but not as hard as before.

I would not spray silicone dry lube on an O-ring. Not saying it is bad for sure, but I would not feel good about that. Still, if you are not leaking now, that puts you in service.

Before you take things apart next time, have replacement O-ring. You can get little containers of silicone plumbing grease, and those will work. I bought a tube that will last me a very long time.

 

[pho]

Which is better ?
Danco Perfect Match: Silicone Grease

or
Dow Corning Molykote 111 Compound 5.3oz

 

[Reach4]

Either will work fine, and the Danco is often readily available locally.

The Dow Molykote is a top brand and that tube contains over 10x as much. But that little tub will do the job great. They are both NSF approved.

 

[pho]

Thank you. I like to buy the Molykote, but a little too much for the filter O ring job.
What are its other usage for ?
Could it be used as pipe sealant thread instead of Teflon tape ?
Have a nice Sunday.
My avatar is our dog pic we've from the Humane Society. She could pick up a treat in our 1 ha lot. She swim very well like 10 laps of 100' each.

 

[Reach4]

It cannot be used as a tapered pipe sealant, but is is nice for straight-thread water connections with a gasket.

I think it can be used as a dielectric grease for electrical work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone_grease

 

[Bannerman]

The product should be a food grade silicone lubricant with a thick grease like texture. As mentioned, it is not a pipe sealant but is intended to lubricate valve stems, swinging faucet spouts, seals and O-rings. I used it also when replacing the seals and piston in my WS valve and when connecting poly lines to the quick push-in connectors on my RO system.

If your filter's housing was re-installed dry, then the O-ring probably was stretched, twisted and distorted by friction against the housing surface. That could then result in an ineffective seal (ie leakage) as you experienced and attempted to remedy by over tightening the filter housing.

 

[ditttohead]

Filter housing wrenches are typically recommended for loosening, not tightening filter housings. The o-ring seal only needs to slightly tighter than "hand tight" to seal.

 

[pho]

Thanks...
Since my WS seems to be working please, please educate me about setting the brine time based on the daily gpm, the hardness, the capacity of the machine and the gallon before recycling. I see calculation of lbs of salt too
I thought that setting the hardness will automatically adjust everything with the water usage counter. In the Kenmore, we input only the hardness number.

 

[pho]

Thanks. I agree with you that Flex is a good brand, their products are well designed, parts could be easily found..

 

[Reach4]

Thanks...
Since my WS seems to be working please, please educate me about setting the brine time based on the daily gpm, the hardness, the capacity of the machine and the gallon before recycling. I see calculation of lbs of salt too
I thought that setting the hardness will automatically adjust everything with the water usage counter. In the Kenmore, we input only the hardness number.

If that is the only setting that you have to adjust, then you make do.

Planning ahead for your next softener, you could look at http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm While you can look over the first part, start reading for real where it starts "Formula for determining compensated hardness".

Know that for each gallon of water that the softener puts into the brine tank, 3 pounds of salt will dissolve in a few hours. The GPM rate of water filling the brine tank is determined by a device called the BLFC (brine level flow control). That rate times the time in minutes is the number of gallons of water put into the tank. After salt disolves in the water, you have brine. The softener sucks the entire contents of the brine tank and runs that slowly through the resin. There are other cycles including the one where the brine tank has the water added. In a "brine first" unit, the brine tank is filled before the other cycles. In most softeners, you have "brine last" where the fill provides the brine for the next regeneration.

Brine first lets the softener use less salt if softening capacity remains. There is some other advantage to Brine Last, but I forget what that is. Brine last is most common.