Resin spilling out at backwash cycle in Culligan WS

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pho

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Lately, the water pressure thru my 10 year old Gold serie Culligan WS is sometimes very low, almost to dripping. My booster pump is at 40-75 psi (I like to set at 55-75 psi but my switch 40-60 don't let me doing so).

I try to recycle it twice. In the the 2nd recycling, the resin spills out in one shot during the backwash cycle. Since the water is drained into the bucket, I've been able to recover 3 gallons of resin which looks like new. I decide to empty the resin tank to check the inside of the tank and the distributor.

I put a few cubic in of the old resin into the distributor and apply water pressure thru the pipe. Since resin is not spilling out of the distributor, it means that the small orifices in the distributor is small enough to prevent resin to come into the tube. Observation shows that the distributor and the pipe attached is still in good shape and well made with thick plastic. (I could not buy a new Culligan distributor anyway on the web)

I 've ordered 1 cubic ft of resin online and my dear wife has the patience to put it into the tank for 3 hours. After I reconnect the WS, I turn on the water and start recycling. I turn off the water when the new resin is spilling out again during the backwash. After waiting for the recycling to be finished, I turn on the water to put the WS running in mode for a while. No more media spilling in the next recycling.

My guess: The new resin which has not settled into the bed and few quantity is near the orifice, could be ejected in the backwash cycle. However, I still don't understand how the old resin is spilled out in the first place. In an old thread, somebody suggests that the cause could be the hi volume air in the water. Furthermore, I don't want it happen again in the next recycling.
 
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Reach4

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How much resin did you add?
What kind-- regular?
Is there a top basket?
7950_1.jpg

How high is your tank from the floor?
What is the diameter or circumstance?
How completely did you empty the old resin?
Do you have gravel?
I am thinking that the answers will help the experienced folks to better diagnose.
http://www.apswater.com/images/soft-tank.jpg
 
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pho

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1)I've added the resin bought online 8% Cross linked.
Water softening resin 1 cu. ft. bag replacement softener resin
2) Yes there is a top basket. Since the basket slots are spacing 1/8in and could not prevent resin from spilling out, I guess it is used to centered and hold the top of the pipe so the head could be inserted. Any other use anyway since there are lot of discussion about it ?
3) The tank is 9" wide and 12 in hi. I've checked around for 1in ft of resin.
I think that I could fix and understand lot of complex issues and plumbing seems to be tough. Hat off to all of you, plumbers.
 
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Bannerman

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Lately, the water pressure thru my 10 year old Gold serie Culligan WS is sometimes very low, almost to dripping.
Resin can become mushy over time, particularly when constantly exposed to chlorine. You didn't mention if your water supply is a well or municipal but since you did mention a booster pump, I expect it is a well.

When mushy, the resin will pack tightly and obstruct water flow through it. While the resin may appear OK, it would feel mushy when squeezed in your hand and so would need to be replaced.

I now see your tank size. A 1 cuft softener normally requires a 9" X 48" tank. A 12" high tank is inappropriate.
 
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Bannerman

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Was your 12" tank sitting on top of another larger tank? If so, the smaller tank may have been originally intended for a small quantity of carbon or another media, to remove chlorine or other elements from the water, prior to softening.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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you are gonna have a mess on your hands fooling with that culligan unit...
if you have low water pressure it can also mean that the control itself needs to be
worked on and has nothing to do with the resin or distributor...

The culligan units are a pain in the neck to rebuild and fool with.. its like working on a swiss watch.
the culligan guys in our town dont even like to work on them .....

Being 10 years old and acting up...
Before you throw a lot of money at it , might I suggest you consider just going to a CLACK unit

good luck either way
 

pho

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Sorry. My tank is 9'*43.5".
I pump water from a lake into a cistern, then pump into the pressure tank. I use an injector pump to add a little bit of Chlorox to sanitize the water.
I agree that the old resin bead is smaller size than the newer ones and could be mushy, preventing the flow.
 

ByteMe

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Complete system details wanted; pump sizes, tank sizes, line size, all filters.

This is of course, if you want.

I think it would be interesting to re-engineer your whole system.

Water test also.
 

Bannerman

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Installing 1 cuft of media into a 9" X 44" tank is pushing the limits of that tanks capacity since the free board space is reduced.

I use an injector pump to add a little bit of Chlorox to sanitize the water.
Define a little bit.

You may want to consider a carbon filter, to remove the chlorine before it reaches the softener.

Below is a link to information on resin replacement.

http://www.softenerparts.com/Resin_Replacement_s/54.htm
 

Bannerman

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Master Plumber Mark has offered a valid recommendation.

As you've already committed to replacing the resin, it appears you have little to loose by proceeding to attempt to get the system working again, at least to the point of verifying if the control valve is working properly.

As you stated you had shut off the water while resin was being ejected out the drain port, there is most likely resin remaining within the valve. You should remove the valve to rinse out any remaining resin, before any damage is done, if it hasn't already occurred.

As you mention the old resin being smaller, I suspect it had originally been Fine Mesh resin as mushy resin usually signifies the resin has swelled.
 
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Akpsdvan

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Culligan tank, 9x48 and 1 cubic foot of resin. About 14lbs of gravel... 1/4x1/8 .
The upper basket is because their service techs could not get the distributor into the valve so the basket if it is called that is screwed into the tank so that the valve can then find the dist tube.
There should be 17" of free space between the resin and the top of the tank.
Now if your getting resin down the drain the flow control could be missing or larger than it should be, the distributor tube could have a crack in it about 6" from the bottom and getting resin to flow out the valve.
Or as stated before, chlorine will break down the resin into like a fine sand and then blow out.
 

pho

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Thank you very much for all the timely replies. I've read comments from other WS threads and I appreciate it.
Your assessments are very true and let me summarize:
1) The old resin is mushy with some grime or white matter attached to it.
2) It is smaller when touching than the new ones which is harder and feel like sand on the concrete floor. This mushy resin could cause the water low flow.
3) I should minimize the chlorine into the system or use a carbon filter to neutralize it. The water with the pump drawn at the bottom of the lake put lot of green slime in the big boy sediment filter 5"*20". The chlorine is helping lot. (The big boy UV filter light and transformer need to be replaced very often.)
4) There is no clear explanation yet how the old resin is spilled during discharge cycle. With 17" of free space, regardless how the valve body functioning or not, how could it happen? In another thread, a person has mentioned about the air in the water causing the resin to float. Note the PVC connecting to the bottom distributor has no leak. Anyway, let hope that it will not happen again with the new resin in the next recycle. I will keep you updated.
To answer ByteMe about my system which has been working for 18 years. Let me show it :

2hp lake pump ----600' 2" pvc---->600 gal cistern --> 2hp booster pump -->(Sediment + UV filter) -->2 pressure tanks 70 gal water storage-->water softener--> house (head or elevation from pump to house: 120')

In my area, my system is one of the few (or the only ones) having a cistern and an extra booster pump which offer lot of benefits:
1) Since the lake pump flow is higher at lower pressure(5 psi) , the 600 gallon tank is filled less than 15 mn. With ~ 200 gallon daily usage, the lake pump is on and off not very often. The 2hp booster pump will take care of charging the 2 pressure tanks to 60-70 psi very fast. My first centrifugal pump is not as good as my second one with the body like the well pump (8 stages)
2) All my neighbor pumps which pumps directly into one 20 or 35 gallon pressure tank last only a few years. Imagine with a leaky pressure tank membrane, the lake pump has to be activated every time people flush the toilet, drawing 90 amp at starting. My 1st lake pump has lasted for 15 years.
Again, thank you for replying my concerns. Hurrah to all the plumbers and master plumbers.
 

Bannerman

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With 17" of free space, regardless how the valve body functioning or not, how could it happen?
Notice that Akpsdvan mentions 17" of space when 1 cuft of resin is installed in a 9" X 48" tank. You indicated your tank is only 9" X 44" and so the free space will be 4" less.

A softener backwash flow rate is typically set to expand the resin bed by 50%.
If your tank is actually 44", it will be too small for 1 cuft as the 'freeboard' (free space between the resin and the top of the tank) will not be large enough to contain the expanded resin. If there is not enough freeboard space, then resin will be expelled out to the drain during backwash.

It appears you will need to reduce the amount of resin within the tank, likely to ~0.8 cuft. Alternatively, you could obtain a larger resin tank, appropriate for the entire 1 cuft.

with the pump drawn at the bottom of the lake put lot of green slime in the big boy sediment filter
If you raised the pump inlet a few feet from the lake bottom, would that reduce the amount of green slime entering your water system?

By your description, it seems chlorination is an appropriate treatment method for your water conditions. You didn't indicate the current amount of chlorine being injected. Have you had the water tested? If so, post the results.
 
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Bannerman

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There is no clear explanation yet how the old resin is spilled during discharge cycle
During normal backwash, water enters through the riser and distributor below the resin, flowing up through the resin and expanding the spaces between the resin granules. The backwash water exits to drain at the top of the tank, carrying any debris with it.

Speculation:
As mushy resin packs tightly and does not permit water to flow easily through it, the water entering below is mostly trapped while under increasing pressure. The pressure then pushes the resin bed upward as a clump, to the top of the tank.
As the water exits at the top, resin is then pushed out to the drain by the water pressure behind it.
 

pho

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To answer Mr Bannerman’s:

You make a very good point of resin expanding 50%, therefore the 17” could not be enough. However it happens with the old resin from the original machine that has been thru so many backwashes.
The water is drawn from Lake Travis in Austin which is a large flood control reservoir of variable level. The pump intake (made by 4” pvc and shaped like a U, 4’ above the ground). It could be 20’ to 80’ underwater. A diver whom I hired to check my dock anchor told me at 60’ depth of my pump intake, the water is dark, murky, 60 degree cold while the air is 110F.
  1. The chlorination amount is just a guest since it is based on the dilution of Clorox, the injection amount of the pump injector and the the booster pump’s flow. ½ gallon of chorine mixed with water into a 10 gallon tank could last at least 3 months equivalent to 200 gal/day*90= 18000 gallons. It is just enough to disrupt the formation of slimy algae into the filter.

  2. I will go to Sears to test my water again. With the old resin the removal of hard water is perfect.

  3. I like very much your theory about the water pressure building up so much into the tank without relief due to the packed resin, then exploding and pushing the resin out. Lately, I’ve adjusted the booster pump pressure switch from 40-60 to 50-75 due to the low 35 psi after the WS. The 10 year old-2hp booster pump (like a well pump with 8 stages) is very powerful, sucking water out of the cistern without priming and could fill out the pressure tanks within minutes. The previous 1 hp centrifugal pump took forever to fill out the 2 pressure tanks. If the precharge happens during the booster pump running, there is a tremendous amount supply of water at constant pressure or rising pressure pushing into the WS. (ie without the pump running, the water pressure drops as more water is drawn from the pressure tank). The hi water pressure could pack the older resin more and reducing the flow.
Question for everybody in the forum:

In the recycling period, it seems the water is flowing out more at the precharge vs the brining or rinse’s. Is the resin being turn around from bottom to the top or staying where they are?
 

ByteMe

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Hmmm, instead of having such a large pressure tank (capacity), ever think of using a CSV (cycle stop valve) ?
 

Akpsdvan

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With the standard distributor from Culligan the resin is going to stay where it at with in the tank in the way of layers.
If there was a tubulator then the resin would be changing places, or playing musical chairs.

If your running chlorine in the water first with out removing it before the softener then your killing your resin on your own.

But that is just me.
 

Bannerman

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In the recycling period, it seems the water is flowing out more at the precharge vs the brining or rinse’s.
The Backwash and Fast Rinse flow rates are controlled by the DLFC restrictor. For your 9" diameter tank, the flow rate will be about 2 GPM.

The Brining and Slow Rinse flow rate is governed by the Injector and will both total about 0.85 GPM when brine is being drawn.
 
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pho

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Thank you for your responses and I appreciate it.
This is a reply to Mr Byteme.
I’ve put some thoughs about the CSV and don’t see yet the benefit unless the flow usage is well known with the correct pump gpm and csv installed. The water usage in any house, facilities varies a lot and is very unpredictable during the day. Turning on and off the faucet for 30 sec to wash our hands, taking a shower, using the dishwashing or washer, with 1 or many persons in a household using water at the same time.

Thus, a system with csv couldn’t deliver efficiently for a wide range of water usage, says from 1 gpm to 20 gpm, especially with a very small pressure tank. Sacrificing efficiency for the sake of preventing the pump cycling only to a certain extend is not a good alternative.

With my booster pump+csv running at 20 gpm, if I use only 1 gpm, the remaining 19 gpm will go into the pressure tank while the pump working for a very long time. In my system, with a 70 gallon of water storage and daily 200 gal usage, the booster pump runs only 4 or 5 times with less than 5 mn each.

Let's compare momentary with the minisplit AC which are very widely used in other continents. With the inverter technology, the electronic controls the compressor to run at different speeds from 50 rpm to 3000 rpm depending on the demand, and so are the outside blower and the inside fan. The system is very quiet, very efficient and the temperature inside the house is very constant. (Although I've two 4T central AC, I've just installed 4 minisplits in my house)

However, the low tech water pump running at constant speed could not adjust at its flow to be more efficient based on demand. It has been prevented to run at its full capacity, been restricted by the CSV to maintain a constant pressure and has to run longer. Even if we’ve a pump with variable speed, it would not be cheap nor easy to design since it has to fight again the weight of the water head, the one way valve among others…
 
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