Purchasing new softener + GAC - help sizing and general advice?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Kent Leigh, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi, I've been doing a lot of research on this investment and have boiled it down to the following. I would appreciate any help or advice you experts might give, especially on sizing, valve choice and my strategy to treat the water problems I have. Purchase horizon is within the next 7-10 days.

    Here goes:

    Single family home, 4400 sq ft (1" PEX), 4.5 baths on city water, 4 people (2 adult, 2 children). Typical water use is under 200 gallons a day (55 per person). Max concurrent usage is typically 2 showers at the same time, rarely even that.

    Water test results:

    Hardness: 10 gpg
    PH: 7.4
    Iron: .7
    Chlorine: 3 ppm

    Approach:

    Fleck 7000 SXT 2 cft GAC (to treat chlorine) followed by
    Fleck 7000 SXT 1.25 cft softener

    I sized the softener based on some online sizing help. I figure 32k capacity is fine for max flow, but i wanted a bit of a buffer at 40k capacity.

    Appreciate any feedback on this plan!

    Thank you
    Kent
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You need to size using the max gpg of hardness in your city water system. You can find that in the company's Water Quality Report on their web site or by calling them. That assumes you haven't saved the one they must mail you each year.

    The constant SFR (service flow rating) of a 32k (1.0 cuft ) is 9 gpm and just barely over 10 gpm for a 1.25 cuft. You will get terrible salt efficiency in either of those softeners.

    You should click on the sizing link in my signature.
  3. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi Gary, I estimate my peak flow rate at 7 gpm and total hardness at 14 gpg. Hence, 32k rated/24k actual size for 8 day regen cycles at 8lbs per regen, or under 400 lbs of salt a year @ $100 cost. I am considering sizing max flow on 9.5 gpm peak flow rates (48k rated system, 36k actual) to account for more concurrent usage as the kids grow up.

    The water supplier doesn't show hardness in the QA report, so I'll have to call them tomorrow to get that.
  4. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi again, ran the numbers for a low salt efficiency. At 1.5 cuft or 22k grains, I can regen the resin every 7 days using 5 lbs of salt. That should cut salt costs by 1/3rd saving around $30 a year (at $10 a bag per 40 lbs). Over 15 years, that's $450 savings for a bump in price (from 1 cu ft) of $40.

    That's assuming 3080 grains used per day (4 people at 55 gallons a day at 14 total hardness)

    Does that sound right?
  5. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,864
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The maximum flow rate is based on fixture counts, you have 4 bathrooms... I would recommend a larger system. Why not at least match the softener and the GAC tank at 2 Cu. Ft. each. That would be the minimum size I would recommend.
  6. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi Dittohead, I restrict usage today to two showers at a time with no dishwashing or washing machine going on. Don't ask me why (because i really don't know, maybe related to growing up and running out of hot water)! Do i still need to account for the 4 showerheads even though we run only 2 at a time at any one time?

    Thanks!

    Edit: Nevermind, the wife wants it sized to consider max flow rate of 12 gpm in case we have visitors or we change the shower configuration (more shower heads) down the road. 2 cuft is current thinking at this point.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,864
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The 2 Cu Ft. 7000 should do you well. I would recommend ordering the 61601 90 degree kits as well, it usually make the installation a little easier, and they are fairly inexpensive.
  8. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

    Messages:
    2,718
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Are there similar 90° kits for other Fleck valves?
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The 2.0 cuft is a much better choice, especially if the kids are quite young, as they grow older you may find you are running more than just two showers, and you get better salt efficiency.

    I suggest a 5600 SXT on the softener with the plastic by pass valve. Gravel underbed and salt grid, 2310 safety brine valve in a 3" brine well and a 12" x 52" regular resin tank (not Vortech). That gets your softener back closer to the wall and the 5600 is much easier to work on than the 2510 or 7000 valves.
  10. ByteMe

    ByteMe New Member

    Messages:
    61
    Location:
    Midland Texas

    HA! Another man with a wife smarter than him!
  11. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Gary, I had assumed 7000 as i have 1" PEX feeding the current system. Wouldn't i lose more water pressure with a 5600? I just checked the pressure gauge and it reads 75 off the main line.

    I think i'll have to reconfigure the entire system as I have outside sprinklers being fed after the in-house distribution (to faucets, bathrooms, and outside bibs), and then the water heater is fed last. ugh

    Main -> house distribution manifold, including outside bibs -> sprinklers -> water heater
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012
  12. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey

    LOL for sure!
  13. ByteMe

    ByteMe New Member

    Messages:
    61
    Location:
    Midland Texas
    Maybe it would be better to figure for maximum GPM of the house. This way if you ever added water use or sold the house and the new owner used a lot of water, your softener could handle it.

    Wouldn't that be more like a 3 Cu ft system? So a 7000SXT.
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,864
    Location:
    Ontario California
    For a 4 bedroom house, the 7000 would be the smallest I would recommend. A 3 Cu. Ft. may be more accurate on paper, but you have to consider the low flow efficiencies as well as the peak and SFR potentials. By exceeding SFR very rarely, and using the peak as the actual capability of the system, the 2 or 2.5 cu. ft. system would be a better choice due to its low flow efficiency, which is what the house will see 95% of the time. Check out the chart below for more information on service flows, both low and high, and potential peak flows. Again, exceeding the recommended flow on a rare occassion does not damage the resin in any noticable way. If you constantly run the system above the recommendation, it will damage it over time. This is a legitimate concern for commercial applications when the system is undersized, or sized to the peak and not the recommended max flow. Residentially, the difference may be 15 years of resin life instead of 18 years... if you exceed the recommended flow on a very regular basis. Also, the 5600 is not recommended on any larger than a 12" softener tank.
    compare.jpg
  15. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Any concern with the GAC at 2 cu ft. when sizing for 12 GPM peak flow rate?

    On the softener, I will rarely exceed max flow rate of 7 GPM. I anticipate in the next 5 years that I'll exceed 7GPM twice a year, and not to exceed 12 GPM at all.

    Regarding sizing for the house for future buyers, I plan on taking my softener and GAC with me if I ever sell! :)
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Using the 5600, you will never notice any additional pressure loss than you would if you had the 7000.

    As to selling the house and leaving the equipment (which I strongly suggest), your sizing is sufficient for most families water use and you wouldn't buy a vehicle thinking about the size of the family that might buy it when you get rid of it, so why do that with water treatment equipment that meets you needs?
  17. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,864
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The GAC system has a much lower service flow, this is based on organics, THMs, VOC, etc removal to a specific amount. As you can see by the chart, the GAC service flows are much lower than the softeners. Peaks are nearly identical.

    And with 4 showers, just do the math, what if you had guests, and had the laundry going, the dishwasher, and a couple of showers, maybe the kitchen sink. It is not too far fetched to see the flow rate quickly goes up much higher than 5 gpm. There is also code to consider. The water treatment equipment must be sized to the house, not to the number of current occupants.
    CF.jpg
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I would not size based on the total/max gpm of the fixture count method as the code requires, which means all fixtures running wide open all at the same time; no one lives like that.

    Another code calls for not reducing the plumbing connectors below the size of the plumbing. But it does not get into the internal port sizes of the control or by pass valves or distributor tube or meter etc.. IOWs if you have 1" plumbing they want a 1" by pass valve and that's as far as the inspector delves into the stuff.

    I always sized based how the family actually uses water and the flow rate of a full flow tub IF the tub is or might be used i the future. In this case I think the planned flow rate of not more than 9 gpm is probably going to be too low by a few gpm as time goes by but that depends on the age of the kids. Teens require more laundry and longer showers than say 3 and 5 year old kids that are thrown in a tub together with a few inches of water in it (parents are still doing that right?).

    Personally I don't see guests using 4 showers while the dish and clothes washers are running at the same time. Four shower heads is a max of 10 gpm. A large tub without an anti scald valve usually flows at over 15 gpm if both hot and cold are full open, which BTW isn't how you fill a tub. And with a tankless water heater, it is flow controlled and in many cases due to the increased cost, most are undersized and nowhere close to the gpm actually needed.
  19. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Considering the 5600 cannot backwash filter media in tank sizes higher than 12" (according to several sources - is this correct), I'm a bit concerned going with 5600 on the softener and 7000 on the GAC. Might as well go 7000 each to keep parts and repair consistent.
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,864
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The "difficult to rebuild" 7000 myth has been fairly debunked by the video I posted anyway. The 7000 will do you very well. The cost should be very similar to the 5600 as well. I would also refrain from telling you to go against code. As to the internal manifold and distributor of the system, the engineering apsect of it has to do with velocity of water through a pipe. Code requires velocities be maintained below certain thresholds unless the application is designed to handle excessive velocities. Commecial and residential water heaters, softeners etc all have been engineered for these slighly higher velocities. Ever take apart a 2" commercial water heater to find the dip tube is 1-1/2"? Softeners as well, the internal manifold may be slightly smaller than the systems size claim, this is beacuse the velocity can exceed 10 FPS when it is insulated inside the tank and surrounded by water.
Similar Threads: Purchasing softener
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r can brine tank be placed farther from the softener Wednesday at 8:21 PM
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r New 9100sxt 48k softener my settings Oct 18, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r New home to me - Problems with Autotrol softener - salty water Oct 14, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Rusty water pressure tank and water softener resin Sep 24, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Can clogged drain damage water softener? Sep 21, 2014

Share This Page