Purchasing new softener + GAC - help sizing and general advice?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Kent Leigh, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The 5600 should not be used as a filter valve on tanks larger than 10" dia , and 12" dia for a softener. All valves have a tank dia limit.

    Usually the parts for a 5600 will be less expensive than parts for the 7000 and the softener normally is also. And the 5600 is much easier to work on and program. Softener and filter version valve parts are not identical.
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    No one said it wouldn't do well, just that the 5600 is easier to work on.

    You advise against the code every time you suggest a softener or filter size that is not large enough SFR wise to exceed the total fixture count method gpm. And as to velocity, every time you advise any 3/4" control valve on 1" plumbing and a 1" by pass valve.

    Since the velocity increases through a short (a few feet max) reduced size 'plumbing, there is little pressure loss.
  3. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Considering the minimal extra cost of going larger against the possible problems of under sizing I can't imagine why you would want to even consider using a 5600 over the 7000. As for the code. It is what it is and it was written by guys with engineering degrees that "really" understand flow velocities, pressure loss and sizing. They didn't just scratch a bunch of crap on paper for something to do.
  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Tom, thanks, some people dont understand or disagree with code. Or they feel they know better than the code writers who are usually people from the industry with decades of experience and serious degrees.

    Reading through the posts by others, I am curious as to when I have ever recommended a 3/4" system on a 1" pipe? As I recall, I am fairly consistent with recommending the 7000 for the simple reason that it is an easy valve to maintain, usually exceeds the code requirements for flow rates, simple to install, easy to program, and considering the valve only needs repair work after a decade, I dont think the cost difference between a $40 piston vs a $45 dollar piston is going to upset any reasonable person. The most expensive repair part on any Fleck valve has been the meter. The 7000 meter turbine assembly is 1/2 the cost of the 5600, 2510, etc.

    As to SFR, I always recommend meeting of exceeding it but with the understanding of code, peak can be considered. Minimum recoomended flow rates need to be addressed as well as SFR. You can not consider one without the other. I guess all those code compliance classes, continuing credit requirements, and recertifications are just a waste of time.
  5. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    This is a DIY site. I think that its unprofessional and irresponsible to advise folks to ignore the code. The codes are there to protect everyone, not just the homeowner. I have no problem servicing the 7000SXT valve at all. It might take a minute or two longer than the Clack WS but who cares?
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Then I expect the two of you to require a fixture count before you get into helping anyone here size a softener.

    And to require all control and by pass valves and the distributor tube and distributor tube baskets are capable of allowing the max gpm flow that the fixture count method developed.

    Also.... that you require that none of those parts be a smaller ID than the water line plumbing the softener or filter is to be installed on.
  7. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    As you have stated yourself on a regular basis, you disregard code, are unlicensed, and despise regulations. Many of the advice givers on this site are licensed, certified, insured, and do just as you say. And since you do not read the codes, nor do you agree with the idea of codes, nor would you understand the codes if you did read them, and you recommend ignoring the codes, I am not sure where you are going with this other than to troll. Lets start with velocity ratings of a non specifically engineered device. Velocity requirements are very basic, and can be exceeded in a properly designed and engineered system. The same way the 80 PSI code can be exceded if the equipment is specifically designed and engineered as such. It is really not that complex, but you will puff out your chest, raise your voice, grit your teeth, drag extra deep on your DIY cigs, and replay with another ridiculous post.
  8. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    To correct your personal attack comments etc.. I am very aware of the codes we are talking about and will require you two to live up to them with emphasis on the total fixture count method of determining the peak demand flow rate that the softener sizes you suggest must be capable of treating.

    I have never sold, installed or serviced any water treatment where I was required to have any license other than a driver's license. The same for the well pump work I did.

    As to the "advice givers" here... you are not a dealer and do not sell to the end user/consumer and IMO you are here to 'police' the only forum I post in. "Tom" is/was a retired plumber and codes guy and part time high school plumbing teacher that until recently always said he wasn't into softeners much but now says differently. He has been banned here numerous times using numerous names, starting with NHmaster and gets into adult beverages at times (or not) and then gets into nit picking like now. So there aren't many (not counting you two, I count only 3 of us) advice givers here that are here solely due to having the best interest of the DIYers at heart.
  9. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi Gary, I prefer to keep the valves the same for both for ease of operation and maintenance. Since i'm looking at a carbon unit that's a 12x48" tank, I can't put a 5600 on it. Therefore, I've selected the 7000 for both GAC and softener.

    Thank you for the help!
  10. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

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    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi Dittohead, just picking up on your last comment regarding service flow rates on the GAC. Today I have assumed a 2 cu ft GAC would meet my needs, but with the chart you provided, that will give me a 6 GPM service flow rate. This should be adequate for normal use, but in the cases where i have a peak flow rate exceeding the 6 GPM, would i expect chlorine bleed? Again, assuming peak flow rates at 12 GPM (more like 7 GPM but sizing for future visitors or changes to the house that would increase our normal peak).

    Going from a GAC at 2 cu. ft. to a 3 cu. ft. system is an expensive proposition (extra $2-300 up front costs).

    On a side note, I had a local treatment company come out. Two installers came out (not the owner), which I'm very appreciative that they came out the day after Thanksgiving. They quoted me the following system: 2 * 2510, 1 CF carbon + 1 CF Softener, 18X33 brine well @ $2600. The system would set to cycle twice a week at 12 lbs per cycle. When I challenged them on the size of the unit and that I wanted to go with a lower salt efficiency system, they basically told me regen at 6.5 lbs wouldn't regenerate the resin sufficiently. It was such a poor presentation and representation, I didn't bother getting into the math and going over additional specs and price.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If I were you (or anyone else) I wouldn't be removing the chlorine on a POE/whole house basis, I'd remove it at the kitchen sink with an undercounter filter and at the shower head with a shower head filter.

    Doing it that way saves a bunch of bucks and allows the chlorine to protect your water from bacteria due to contaminated faucet tips etc. which can be fairly common with young kids, or cats that get up on sink counters and/or in tubs.

    A true 2.0 cuft tank is a 12" x 52" or you don't get proper (50%) bed expansion during backwash.
  12. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi Gary, I switched to 12 x 52. For some reason many of the online retailers are selling their kits with 12x48 tanks.

    On POU, I have 4 shower heads, 4 tubs, ice/refrig and 9 faucets in the house. Protecting my family from 3ppm chlorine across that many POUs...I find that daunting without using a POE system. Any advice?

    By the way, I'm working off one test from a guy that came in from a local Rainsoft installer. The city water supplier claims the chlorine levels are at .7ppm (from a 2011 QA report). The test from the local Rainsoft installer tested at 3ppm. My chlorine test strips I use on the pool (free chlorine levels) came up with 0-1 ppm. How can i get an accurate chlorine test? maybe I'm solutioning a problem I don't have!?

    Thanks!
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Although the 2510 is an excellent choice, it seems that Dittohead and his and other distributors aren't doing a very good job of training dealers and their personnel. Maybe Dittohead should concentrate on educating domestic folks more and quit disrupting this forum and flying around the world so much.

    Clack Corp. got around their failure to educate and police their distributors and force them to do the same with their dealers by shutting down internet sales and preventing the use of their name...
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Dealers sell the smaller tank to save themselves a few bucks on the price and the shipping cost.

    Your 'fridge already has a filter or should. You could teach the kids and their Mom (possibly) what faucet to use and not use for drinking water, brushing their teeth isn't a problem. Test strips depend on your ability to see colors correctly and the age of the strip may cause an error in color. Your pool kit is sufficient IMO although you don't get total chlorine. Your family doesn't use all 4 showers now do they, so filter those that are used daily until later.
  15. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I'm looking at the Clack valve and besides the apparent ease of maintenance and rebuild, one feature is fairly attractive: dry salt storage. I would imagine this would cut down on salt use by flushing the soft water through the brine well as part of the regen cycle instead of storing the water in the brine well that Fleck does. Question: does this have a measurable difference in terms of operation or salt usage? Is it worth spending more on the Clack valve (through a local distributor)?
  16. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    In regards to the service flow rate of carbon, the 6 gpm is for certified removal of certain organic chemicals, including thm's, chlorine, certain pesticides, etc. Once you exceed the service flow, the system will remove less of the chemicals the medias are designed to remove. That being said, chlorine is easily removed by GAC and exceeding the service flow will pose no problem. If it did, then a refrigerator filters actual service flow would be approximately .09 GPM, there chlorine removal flow rate is closer to .5 GPM.

    Water softener resin has similar service flow rate considerations. Exceeding this flow rate on a rare occassion, guests in the house during the holidays is a good example, will have vitually no negative affect on the life of the resin. Exceeding these flow rates regularly will cause damage to the resin, but this is really only prevalant in commercial applications. The vast majority of residential applications only see a couple hundred gallons per day, a small restaurant can see 20X that.

    The 2510 is an excellent valve, but a 1 Cu. Ft. system for a 4 bedroom house... not sure why any reputable company would recommend that. As to fixture counts etc, the actual code compliance (according to UPC) is quite simple, and the plumbing size is dictated by that as well. The actual calculation is determined by flow velocities, something many people have a difficult time grasping. These same people also cant figure out the 7000 valve, a valve that has been a huge seller for Pentair, both residentially and commercially. The 7000 is a very high flowing valve that cost minimally more than the 5600, less thean the 2510SXT, has far fewer parts than any other Feck valve. The simplified drive train has proven to be nearly bullet proof, and it has far less potential of causing any flow loss compared to other controls available. The "difficult" to repair 7000 has been completely debunked by the video that was posted earlier, it is no more difficult than the 2510. It is slighly more difficult than the WS1 and 5600, but since these high end controls only need to be rebuilt every decade or more, I am not sure why this is such a huge deal to certain people.

    I would highly recommend removing the Chlorine at the POE as opposed to the POU. Again, strange ideas abound how well water is ok to be dechlorinated, but municipal should not, when much of the municipal water is from wells anyway. Why would it be ok to have dechlorinated water at a well, but not on city water. The idea is control. Occassional sanitization of the plumbing should be done regardless, especially for thos who do not have copper plumbing.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  17. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Since you say much of the city water today is from wells, why does it, city water, have to have chlorine added to it? Could it be due to open air treatment and/or adding surface water to the well water in the non sanitary treatment process? Private residential wells do not have that problem.

    You keep going on about velocity.... Velocity is a product of pressure and usually the code calls for a max of 8ft/sec for copper tubing in most cases. No one, including plumbing inspectors, measures it and if it is exceeded occasionally (as in a 5600 on 1" plumbing), it doesn't cause a problem for many years, like decades, and then you would have an erosion caused leak usually at an elbow IF there is some property in the water to cause that erosion to occur. To my knowledge there are no elbows in a softener and we are not dealing with copper control valves, copper distributor tubes or copper distributor tube baskets. And yes, the velocity is reduced slightly for plastic water line/plumbing but none of the same type plastic is used in control valves except some big box brands and I've never heard of any erosion leaks in any of them over my 25 years in water treatment.
  18. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    You never get it right do you I am most certainly NOT retired for one. I teach full time for two, I am still the CEO of my plumbing company for 3 and I have been selling, installing, servicing and repairing water filtration and water pumps for almost 40 years now. Oh yes and finally, though your ignorance does indeed draw me in the direction of alcoholic beverages, you have not pushed me off the wagon yet. LOL

    You neve
  19. Kent Leigh

    Kent Leigh New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hi all, I had someone come out again and run some new tests. Chlorine is at .7 ppm (consistent with my own tests using a pool test dip stick), and hardness at 3 gpg. He ran the hardness test twice! I think the guy who originally did it was a crook, considering he also wanted to sell me a $7200 Rainsoft system.

    Now i'm a bit confused. I still want to pursue some treatment, to get the softness down below 1 gpg (personal preference), but I don't think i need a 2cu ft system any longer. Even at 1 cu. ft., and with revised usage in house at 50 gallon average per person (200 gallons a day), the system is oversized and I'd likely have to force a recycle every 14 days.

    Help?
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Location:
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    I agree with you Tom, some people just dont get it. The reason that municipalities chlorinate is a legal issue, a residual chlorine level must be maintained up to the residence. That darn pesky code again. After that, it is up to the homeowner to decide how they want to treat their water. And velocity is what it is all about when it comes to pipe size and code, it is the basis for sizing pipes. It determines the correct pipe size for an application. That is why a small resaurant may need a 2" copper feed pipe, when the restaurant next door may only need a 1" pipe. Excessive velocity needs caused by the use of Sloan toilets, solenoid filled dish washers etc all have to be calculated properly otherwise excessive velocity can occur. Noise, whining, pipe clamps falling off due to excessive vibration etc are all common problems when velocities are not addressed. That is why velocities can exceed 8 FPS inside of the softener tank otr water heater dip tubes without causing these problem, being cushioned and surrounded by water limits these issues. Other times, we intentionally design systems in excess of 15 FPS to ensure turbulence inside the piping systems. These systems are engineered for this with long radius elbows, welded seems that are done robotically to minimize imperfections etc. Your understanding of code and velocities is strangley weak for someone who claims to be able to size equipment properly. And you are correct, we do not "measure" velocities, we calculate it. It is really a very simple calculation. It is also one of the most important calculations to consider when sizing equipment. That bein said, if we keep to the recommended flow rates of the equipment as I have posted, we know that we will be within specs. You are also the one who recommends against the Hach 5B test kit and recommend test strips that give you barely adequate estimates on harness. Its not surprising that you consider velocity unimportant.
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