Pump selection w/CSV can get technical....Fixed stack impellers..Whose got them?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by xlr8tion, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    As a "self professed" DIY'er I certainly have learned alot from this forum and especially Valveman.

    I have one of his awesome CSV2W's and have read much of the info on the site-impressive.

    Being that the CSV has outlived 2 pumps in 12 years( 1st 11yrs and 2nd 1yr) I have spent probably 30 hours reading this forum, CSV's site and Pump Mfgs sites.

    I have run into a problem......

    Given that the CSV should not see a max pressure exceeding 175 psi and to reduce amperage draw with flow-you need a stacked impeller to do this.

    Most every pump design is converted to a Floating stack impeller which can actually increase amps as flow is reduced-not good as more KW are consumed to produce less flow and higher shut off PSI's than Grundfos' fixed stack.

    As far as I can tell, excluding generic Mfgs-Grundfos is the only Pump I can find that uses a fixed stack.


    Anyone know of any pump makers that use a fixed stack impeller besides Grundfos? I am looking at a 15Gpm 1.5HP 2 wire 230W Franklin J/V or Schaefer legend/V(specs look identical) but these run floating stacks. I can go with the Grundfos but the cost is 2x.

    I need to stay below 125 Shut Off PSI as I do not want to damage the CSV...Any Franklin powered pumps with Fixed stacks?

    Thanks....:)

    Well Data...

    Grundfos 16s1514 1.5HP 2W230-DEAD.............
    4" ID PVC Casing
    Well Depth......220"
    Screen Interval....200-220'
    Pump depth...180'
    Static level....160'
    CSV.....CSV2W 1.25 50-125psi
    Tank...Amtrol WX202UG(14gal)
    Drop pipe 180' 1.25 SCH 80 Silverline

    Attached Files:

  2. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    There are lots of copies of the Grundfos. Any with Stainless Steel impellers will have a fixed stack. Unitra, National, Hydroflo, SMP, just to name a few. The floating stack impellers won't increase in amperage as the flow decreases, but some won't decrease at all, and others won't decrease as much as a fixed stack.
  3. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Motor brand moot compared to pump design?


    What caught my eye was this particular statement from "Pump Horsepower Characteristics".

    "Along with the style of impeller, the design of the pump can also affect efficiency at low flow. Submersible pumps can have floating stack or fixed stack impellers. Floating impellers are loose to move up and down on the pump shaft. Some floating designs are not held up by the pump shaft and motor bearing, and allow each impeller to drag and carry its own thrust load. Other floating designs allow the pump shaft to hold the impeller up during down thrust. This puts all the down thrust on the motor thrust bearing. A fixed stack impeller pump has all the impellers locked to the pump shaft. This allows the whole stack and shaft to float up and down to a point. However, the impellers are locked to the shaft at a point and held up by the motor thrust bearing.

    Most of these type pumps will reduce in amperage when the flow is restricted. However, fixed stack impellers have the least drag, and usually have the best horsepower characteristics at low flow. Again, choosing the right pump can offer better energy efficiencies at low flow rates. Some 2 HP submersibles with floating stack impellers may only reduce from 14 amps to 12 amps at low flow. Others with fixed stack impellers can reduce from 14 amps to 5 amps, and would be considerably more efficient at low flow rates. "



    This is very salient information as who would not want a 9Ah drop vs a 2Ah drop; considering that we are talking about a pump that would use half the kWh's? If the CSV extends my pump life at the expense of using more kWh's(something definitely worth it given the cost of swapping a pump) I would like a pump that utilizes the least amount of kWh at low flow conditions. It truly would refute the opponents of CSVs that claim we are trading extended pump lifespan for excessive kWh consumption.

    Can you relate, from your vast experience which pumps exhibit these better energy efficiencies? Which floating stack pumps brands, in your opinion are the most efficient? And is any floating stack more efficient than a fixed stack-given the same HP, GPM at the same PSI?

    I think much debate over which electric motor type is moot when the true savings, with a CSV, are implict to the pump design .

    If I am using 9Ah(~2kWh) less in any low flow scenario-that translates into a tremendous energy savings. Hundreds of dollars per year.

    I know this varies for every application-but can you please use your expertise and my above listed parameters to indicate the most efficient pump(brand and model) for my particular application?


    Thanks!

    Greg
  4. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You already know the Grundfos is the most efficient at low flow, but it is also the most expensive. The copies I mentioned are very close.

    However, even pumps that drop from 14 amps at 25 GPM to 4 amps at 1 GPM are using more energy per gallon at low flow. 14 amps at 25 GPM is .56 amps per gpm. 4 amps at 1 GPM is 4 amps per gpm, or 7 times the energy per gallon as when using higher flow rates.

    So, to save energy you still want to run your irrigation zones at as high a flow rate as possible. The house won’t use enough water to make much difference. If all the water used in the house is at 2 GPM, it still won’t add 2 bucks a month to the electric bill compared to the pump running at full capacity and cycling into a big pressure tank.

    Running 2 GPM for long periods of time, as for irrigation, will cost you 7 times as much as when irrigating at 25 GPM, even with a pump that is the most efficient at low flow. If you do run a lot of irrigation at low flow, the pump that drops the most in amperage is important. Because if you use a pump that doesn’t drop amps at low flow, you would still be using 14 amps at 1 GPM, which is 3.5 times as much energy as is used by the pump with the good drop in amps.
  5. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Which of these pumps would you select




    Here are my options at 60 PSI using a 2W 230 1.5HP at 180' static level




    Well Data...

    Grundfos 16s1514 1.5HP 2W230-DEAD.............
    4" ID PVC Casing in sandy soil
    Well Depth......220"
    Screen Interval....200-220'
    Pump depth...180'
    Static level....160'
    Pressure Switch ......Schneider 40/60 set at 40/63
    CSV.....CSV2W 1.25 50-125psi
    Tank...Amtrol WX202UG(14gal)
    Drop pipe 180' 1.25 SCH 80 Silverline
    PSI range during various zones (38 zone 1, 55 zone 2-8)

    Rated GPM / / Flow GPM / Shut Off PSI / Shut off (feet)/ Motor. Impeller Price
    Grundfos 16s1514 /16 / 12.75 /106/ 415 ? /Grundfos/ Static SS /1400/750*/

    Franklin J Triseal /15/ 13 /124/ 467 /Franklin/ Float TP /559/

    Franklin V (Five) /15/ 13 /124/ 467 /Franklin/ Float TP /603/

    Schaefer V /15/ 13 /124/ 467 /Franklin/ Float TP /617/

    Schaefer Triseal /15/ 13 /124/ 467 /Franklin/ Float TP /609/ "

    Goulds 10LS422C /10/ 14 /162/ ~560 /Centipro/ Float TP /577/

    [/CENTER]
    All pumps have SS head/body TP=Thermoplastic SS= Stainless Steel

    The Franklin J/V/Triseal/Schaefer all have the same stats...Same pump? The Grundfos can be bought online for 750-the rest of the pumps are from Authorized Pump Retailers for Gould/Franklin and Grundfos.


    Bottom line....Which pump would you select if the pump is used 99 per cent for irrigation and as a back up when the H20 grid goes down?

    Thanks!
  6. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    537
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Why don't you just put a Franklin motor on the newer Grundfos? Just make sure that the motor is the bad part and not the pump.
  7. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Not an option......Whole assembly is going back to Grundfos to refund my $$.

    Have you installed any Franklin J/V class submersibles?

    Thanks...Greg
  8. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    I use Franklin J-Class series V, 1/2hp and 1hp regularly.. 9/10 of them installed with CSV, I have no complaints.
  9. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Difference between the 15GPM 1.5HP J Triseal Sandhandler and the Series V?

    Thanks for the info!

    Why the J "V" vs the Triseal....Is there a big difference? The J series catalog does not indicate anything I can discern between the Triseal and the Series V.

    I really appreciate the info as I have a Franklin Supplier right here in town and torn between the Franklin J and the Grundfos 16s1514. They are strikingly similar in their performance curves

    I am at 180' so I can use 14/2 rather than 12/2 to get a "soft start" effect.

    Thanks again....:D

    Regards...
    Greg
  10. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If the best efficiency at low flow rates is the goal, the Grundfos is the one I would chose. But I like Franklin motors. Franklin hasn’t changed much since they bought Jacuzzi pumps, and Jacuzzi was as good as any. If you are really looking at efficiency you should use a 3 wire motor with a cap start and a run cap. The run cap helps reduce the energy consumption over a 2 wire motor.
  11. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Thanks for the info Valveman!

    My pump installer(the original guy) refuses to install 3 wire pumps. As there are a lot of things he refuses to based on the "his way or the highway" adage. This is what we face down here. This is why I have been held in a state of "limbo" as if you use a "licensed" driller/pump repair guy you have limoted choices.

    For example. I mentioned the pside kick and he told me we would not install that; even though he had no idea what I was talking about. I explained it was and would save him labor time and he did not want to hear it.

    Hence you may understand my frustration as this would not happen in IL, WI, TX or any other State I have lived in.

    They are not looking for informed clients (the three guys I have access to) and this is why I went on that rant on my thread.

    To save you alot of time, which you have given much that I do appreciate, my choices are limited to a Franklin J 15JS15S4-2W230 (550) from the supply house or a Grundfos 16S1514 that would be drop shipped from Grundfos; but ordered from a dot com(650).

    I have been w/put a well for 2wks plus now so I would really appreciate some input as the lead times on both are 1 week.
    Everything will be replaced to eliminate bad wiring (switch to 14/2 THHN)/carcked drop pipe and tank.

    Please LMK today if you can as I have to get my order in by tomorrow for the pump to get it next week.

    I apologize for the amount of time, posts and requests but these forums are really all the help I am getting.

    Thanks!...

    Greg
  12. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Between those two pumps for performance and longevity, it is six of one and a half dozen of the other.
  13. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    Not to start a fight, but I have at least 3] 20 year old wells on various types of pressure tanks that have the original pumps in them. I have others where I use a tank high up the hill and fill it with a float valve - [long run, full bore] I expect them to last a very long time. 12 years on the CSV pump is no achievement, in my eyes, even though pressure tanks are a PITA. Every well has a story to tell, and there is no one size fits all solution to keeping a pump running. And yes, the newer pumps have some death features built in, but if you stick to a real USA built pump and good motor, and size it right, you can still get 12-20 years with maintenance of the pressure tanks, and for me, a high kick out pressure that keeps the pump running as the poor mans CSV. Pipes take a lot more pressure than we give them credit for.
  14. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Well you can no longer get pumps made like the ones you have that are 20 years old. Getting a pump made 100% in the US is pretty hard as even Franklin motors are now made in Mexico. We tried setting the pressure switch high enough to prevent cycling many years ago. With jet pumps this can work, but not with subs that build 120 to 150 PSI. With a lot of engineering, designing, sizing, adjusting, and a big enough tank, you can sometimes work around what a CSV does. The CSV just makes it dependable, long lasting, and easy. 12 years is a long run since we don’t know how long the tank had been waterlogged. And with the kind of contractors he is dealing with, we don’t even know for sure what or if anything really failed on the first pump.
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