Grundfos 16s15-14 fails after 13 months......Hey Valveman!

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by xlr8tion, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Not a plumber guys...So go easy on me....LOL...Paid the pump installer for the following fiasco.

    Had my 4" Grundfos 16S15-14 2 wire replaced(12 yr old) with exact same model on 4/20/12....new SS couplers on 220' Silverline Drop pipe(1.25" x 20'x11)-no check valve except the one on the pump. Running Delat Lighting Arrestor off Schneider 40/60 with copper ground rod.

    IMG_1880.jpg

    Running one of Valvemans Circa 2001 CSV's with an in ground Pressure tank.

    When it was replaced last April..I noticed one of the 1.25" fittings dripping which caused the pump to cycle 3x an hour-called pump installer 4 times...Never showed.

    Anywho....today my 40/60 switch was closed(allowing 240 V to the motor) and the PSI gauge showed zero...So I kicked the breaker off for an hour and this allowed the pump, for some unknown reason to reset and it filled the pressure tank and the Pressure switch turned the pump off at 60PSI.

    I discharged the pressure tank and thinking the pump would kick on at 40- it did not.....Contacts closed on 40/60 but nothing from the p[ump. Nada. Anywho....have to repeat process of kicking breaker off...wait 10 minutes and turn on breaker.

    So is the pump shot after 13 months and Valveman...since I have to have the above ground PVC replumbed after your massive CSV...can I just replace it with one of your awesome thermoplastic variable 50 or 60 psi model CSV12550 or CSV12560?

    Hard to believe I need a 1.5HP pump for a 220ft well....The grundfos is running me about 650 to 700..thinking of running a Schaefer with a Franklin motor instead.

    So...perhaps the cycling 75 times a day times 400 days(due to the drip leak i8n the plumbing )played a role in the pumps demise?


    Thanks for your advice......

    Greg
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  2. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Sorry to hear about your trouble. A "drip" doesn't cause your pump to kick on 3X an hour....that's a sizable leak. Some of the Grundfos pumps have built in cycle protection and you have to leave the power off for a number of minutes before it will reset. I don't deal with them often so I can't really remember the details.

    Is that a filter between the pump and tank? Hard to tell from your pic. Never put a filter between the pump and tank.

    Good Luck, I hope your well guy makes it right if the pump failed prematurely.

  3. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Edit-double post
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  4. craigpump

    craigpump Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    ct
    I doubt the wet end is bad, most likely the motor failed. It should be covered by warranty.
  5. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,586
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I agree with TW that a drip should not cause the pump to come on 3 times per hour. I would suspect the underground tank is shot, (waterlogged), and you are not getting the proper drawdown.

    I also agree with Craig that the pump end is still good, you probably only need the motor.

    Also the standard CSV2W valve, as it looks like you have, has a 5 GPM minimum built into it. So even with a good tank, the CSV will let the pump cycle when using less than 5 GPM. With a waterlogged tank, the 5 GPM minimum CSV will let the pump cycle even more. This could have been the reason for the pumps demise.

    We do make those CSV2W with a 1 GPM minimum, and if that is what you have, it will work as good as any of our 1” CSV’s down to 1 GPM without cycling.

    If you switch valves, I would use the CSV1 as it has the 1 GPM minimum, where the CSV1.25 has a 3 GPM minimum. The lower the minimum flow, the less the pump will cycle.

    However, the CSV2W valve you have is one of the workhorses in our line. They rarely fail and are even repairable. I can even send you a new seat that has the 1 GPM minimum if you don’t already have that.

    The CSV1 would work fine, but it is hard to plumb in a situation like yours without getting the valve in a bind. Plumbing the plastic valves with tension from pipe settling in the ditch can cause the CSV to leak.

    Thanks for the kind words in your PM. Sorry for the delayed reply. I was planting a large garden this weekend and didn’t get much else done.
  6. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Thanks guys!

    Well...she does not cycle at all when running(thanks to the CSV). Grundfos refuses to warrant the pump as I bought it from a large dot com.

    Anywho......Specifically I am wondering if I need a 16gpm rated pump if I have a variable CSV=such as the CSV12560? Valveman...I think your charts say 1gpm to 25 on that.

    I am wondering if the pump was oversized as the no Variable Pressure CSV's were available in 2000?

    So.....how long will a CSV12560 last when any sand is present?

    And with a variable CSV can I step down to say a Goulds 10GPM LS or GS 1.5HP 2 wire-or should I go with the 13 or 18 GPM? I am not buying any more POS Grundfos based on their lack of service...I'd buy a Franklin as well......

    It's for Irrigation and potable H20(it's dual use permitted) when I kick the diverter over when we lose city water.


    She'll start once...but as soon as the pump cycles one time the 40/60 stays open with no juice.

    I have to kick the breaker ..wait and hour and then hit it again. Its a one start wonder!


    Thanks for all your help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Greg
  7. craigpump

    craigpump Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    ct
    I'm curious about how much you saved by getting the pump from some dot com place
  8. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    I'm curious why you are curious.


    The last pump guy GOUGED me so hard to do this swap /drop-500 labor for one hour and I had to help him as he brought no laborer.

    The pump cost me 662 dollars and the dot com has agreed to return my money once I return the pump to them. The original pump installer wanted 2000 for the same pump swapped. The two SC "authorized retailers" want 800 for the pump; the GREEDY original installer wanted 500 for the labor and 1500 for the Grundfos. I had all the fittings and etc.

    I paid the other GOUGEing licensed pump installer 500 to do the swap and I supplied new ss fittings, seal, pump, wire shrink wrap, drop pipe spacers, pressure switch, new gauge and delta Lightning Arrestor and ground rod. EVERYTHING and it took him 1 hour to pull and drop the pump with me doing half the work!

    Fair is one thing; VICTIMIZING someone 2000 for a 800 dollar pump swap using the same drop pipe and cable for one hours labor is another. Charging a client 500 for an hour and asking his help is unethical. SC BLOWS MY MIND.

    These greedy guys give good guys like you a bad rap and make us clients wary of becoming victims.

    Ideally suggestions are helpful-brand, GPM..that kind of stuff. I'm Redassed enough about what happened and I have to get gouged again cause I AM TOO STUPID TO DO THIS according to the "experts".
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
  9. craigpump

    craigpump Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,080
    Location:
    ct
    The reason I asked is mainly to find out if you saved any money and aggravation. It's great that the dot com place will give you a refund, but if this was your domestic water source, you would be screwed until a new pump showed up and someone installed it. If your wife is like mine, I would have to visit her at the local Hampton Inn.

    As for what the locals charged you, there are a lot of unseen costs associated with operating a business that have to be taken into consideration. A licensed pump installer/well driller with 15 years experience has just as much time learning his trade as does a lawyer or a physician learning his craft. In addition we also have equipment, insurances, taxes, licensing fees, vehicle registrations, advertising, inventory, phone bills, apprenticeship fees for our employees, business property and taxes, an office and office staff etc that have to be figured into the job cost. Basically if we don't make a profit this year, we won't be in business next year to warranty that pump we installed for you.

    I'm not saying their prices are too high or too low, but I am defending their right to make a profit.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  10. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,586
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I agree with Craig that a professional pump installer needs to charge about twice his cost to make a profit. And if he doesn’t get at least a couple of good jobs like this a week, he won’t be in business for long.

    I also think a professional pump installer should be licensed, insured, up to date with the technology available, and bring his own helper. These are the reasons he has to charge what he does, and after paying taxes, rent, and the light bill, he is lucky if there is anything left.

    I would stay with the CSV2W when sand is present. The plastic valves don’t like sand.

    You also need to figure out the cause of failure. The problem with submersibles is that everything is 100’ down the well, and you won’t know the real problem until you pull it up where you can see. It could be just a rubbed wire, bad splice, or something simple. The worst case is probably a bad motor, but I would bet the pump end is still OK.

    Finding the real cause of failure is the best way to keep it from happening again.
  11. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    A hoist like the one pictured in craigpumps profile runs about $80,000. One hour labor to pull 220 ft of threaded drop pipe and wire? Not hardly.

    Did you ever consider that maybe if you had the pump, bought and paid by a professional and installed by one, that this problem would not have occurred? You "Saved" some money, and for all your savings you get to do the job twice. A professional doesn't install somebody else's pump and a professional doesn't show up without any help. You know how to get a million dollars being in the drilling/water well business? Start off with 10 million.

    Funny that a P.E. should accuse somebody of "Gouging" them on price. Usually it's the PE's that screw things up for ordinary people.
  12. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    I did hire a licensed pump installer.....And have drilled six wells myself.

    Insulting me aside(as a PE) I paid a "licensed pump installer" (Gunter Well Services) to do the swap and drop. Thye pump was drop shipped from Grundfos. The chain of custody went from sealed box to him installing it w/ne as his assistant. I am not debating the initial well install 12 years ago; I am debating what we call "Yankee Clipping"(overcharging yankees who live in SC). "Gravity does not apply in SC and this licensed pump guy had to be forced to use the appropriate shrink tubing for the motor wiring versus just using electrical tape. There are minimum standards and the installer showed up with what appeared to be a Tow Truck with a extendable boom on it. It does not take long to pull a pump when you dont have a pitless to fuss with. As you can see my drop pipe is connected to a 1.25 FNPT Galvanized Tee(all 6 bucks worth). We pulled the 10 or 11 silverline drop pipes, replaced the simmons 1905 split seal, couplings changed to SS and rewired the pump, dropped it back down and I am telling you it is AN EASY INSTALL look at the pics guys.

    Please don't conflate your profession with others. I built/GC'd my own steel framed home with four friends and if everyone relied on the "professionals" no one would ever learn anything.

    I did hire professionals twice...I just had the bad luck of losing two pumps in 12 years. The cycling issue has to be resolve so all drop pipe will be new; I am using a Goulds 10LS15422C cuz it can do 14 GPM(60psi) at 160' and 10.1GPM (60PSI) at 300'. The "licensed pump expert" wanted to put a 18LS in which won't even put out 5 GPM(60PSI) at 220'.....Yeah us PE's are dummies but we can read flow curves and the only thing the original thing the guy did that seems logical now is the AWESOME CSV2W which the Grundfos could not keep up with as it was pushing 38psi on zone 1 no matter how the CSV was adjusted. Too much GPM not enough pressure.

    I'll take my dumb ass and stick with the part of the system I know is GOLDEN the CSV.

    I will:

    1. Buy new Simmons 1905-the jackhole splayed and broke the seal when he did the swap.
    2. Buy a Bronze 1.25" FNPT Tee as a Pitless and cap the top with a male PVC plug.
    3. Rebuild my CSV if the pros in lubbock think it needs it.
    4. Buy new drop pipe; Silver line 1.25 20' x12 sections.
    5. Reuse my 10 SS fittings from last year
    6. Install a FLOMATIC 80e Brass 1.25 Check valve(4032E) 20' above the pump.
    7. Use a CORRECT pump...The 10LS15422C bought for 577 from Hughes Supply(where my pump guy buys his) and not pay him the 1000 premium .
    8. Use a Goulds 23315RL pumpsaver so I am protected from dry run, dead head, over current and etc.....
    9. Buy a new 4.4gal pressure tank.
    9. New Schneider 40/60
    10. New wire and etc.....


    Then I will pay the Original Installer(GWA certified and SC licensed) to do the reconstruct. He will complain the whole time but hey I keep quiet as I'll do my grumbling here as he will walk away if I say a peep.

    By your logic no one should change their oil if they are not a Mechanic, install a Fan if they are not a Union Electrician and etc.

    You guys jump the ordinary guy who is looking for advice not criticism.

    I understand my post is "charged up" but you do not know that I do drill wells in Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras-I have done 6 since September 2012. I pay 2K a week to bring water to people in the name of Jesus...So think about working in 105F heat 12 hours a day with rudimentary equipment. You guys might covet money a bit much.

    Give(some advice) and the good karma will flow back.....Everyone is appreciated until TX Wellman says....

    "Funny that a P.E. should accuse somebody of "Gouging" them on price. Usually it's the PE's that screw things up for ordinary people. "


    Well I spend 2K a week to help extraordinary people not have to walk a kilometer to get water that will give them dysentary. Join me Texas Wellman on a Living Water Internation trip-they are out of Houston. I go every 60 days...you would be a huge asset....I mean that sincerely.

    We must as k ourselves what have we done selflessly for others? Or is all about us? Only each of us knows that answer.

    My issue is the ethics of the well drillers here in SC as I spend my free time and alot of money to help those who can't help themselves.

    If I want a fight I will go talk to my wife...Geez!

    BTW...All advice was/is appreciated-that PE comment really got me hot so my apologies to all in the thread. And that is me "Tebowing" in the last pic. Second pic shows me at the controls of the DeepRock rig -we went 283' deep with a 4" casing and a India Mark II hand pump. Acajutla, El Salvador September 2012.


    "If you want to come after me; you must deny yourselves daily, pick up your Cross and follow me"

    Luke 9:23

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  13. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    I'm glad that you help LW drill wells in the 3rd world, but that has nothing to do with this thread.
    You just described every well job that I have ever been on. Thank you.

    When you rip my profession and accuse people of GOUGING (your words, not mine), expect to be ripped back. $577 for that 1.5 HP pump? Now I think I'm the one getting gouged.
  14. xlr8tion

    xlr8tion P.E. (Professional Engineer)

    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    SC
    Grueling is when you have to

    Manually have to dig 2 100 cubic foot "mud pits" by hand in rock hard ground and then hand mix 700+ gallons of bentonite/h20 drilling fluid-more on this job as we hit an underground river; lost our drill fluid 2x and this is not the "easy" Rotary Air method you saw in El Salvador-this is the back breaking "Mud Pit" method and you have 4 days from arrival to dedication with the hopes of the whole village that your team hits H20 and completes the job-not leave them an empty hole. It does have relevance as although I am not licensed to drill I work hard like you guys and just want to get the job done right for the people.

    I said in an earlier post in this thread....

    These greedy guys give good guys like you a bad rap and make us clients wary of becoming victims.

    You guys being the "good guys" and the dudes I run into here in SC being the bad guys. They do give the drilling industry a bad rap.

    Meeting these guys...you would not want them associated with your trade.

    I apologize if you took offense-I am sure things are on the "up and up" outside SC where most trades are non union and unregulated.

    My "swap and drop" licensed driller left me "dry" and is avoiding me-perhaps I projected a bit on you guys...

    Again...my apologies.

    This was in Montechristo, Guatemala -9/24 to 9/28 2012...Jesus provided 1000 villagers with water.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
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