Preassure Tanks n Reserves for long term showers +

[Valveman]

I am not worried about full 60psi pressure for a 30 minute shower party with 6 friends.

OK, I know you think I am just trying to sell you one of these.

PK1A Pside-Kick Pressure Tank Kit – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation Installation Video General Information Typical Applications Specifications Dimensions Installation Instructions Troubleshooting VFD Controller Replacement WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including nickel, which is known to the State of California...

cyclestopvalves.com

And I am. But it is not because I desperately need a couple hundred bucks right quick. Or, that I even make a couple hundred bucks on a $500 kit. Lol! I could make a lot more money selling things like 119 gallon pressure tanks for a thousand bucks and VFD's for several thousand to people who think they need them, but then I couldn't sleep at night. I get accused of telling long stories, but I am just trying to give people the benefit of over a half century of working on pumps and wells.

Here is the long story. As a pump man when the phone rings, you know someone is mad and out of water. Normally they are standing in the shower with soap in every orifice, and the water SUDDENLY stopped coming out of the wall. No warning!

That is because pumps nearly always fail on start up, and a tank with 38 PSI air charge is completely out of water when that diaphragm hits the bottom at 38 PSI. It is not a gradual loss of pressure, it is instant. Even if you haven't flushed the toilet or anything during the night and the tank happens to be full, you won't know the pump is not going to start until you use all the water in the pressure tank. May not be a problem for the first person to take a 15 gallon shower, but the second person ain't gonna be happy. My advice is always to dip some water out of the back toilet tank with a cup to get the soap out of their eyes, and wait for my service truck to show up in a day or three. Although, I will have to work them in when i can because I have months worth of work already scheduled.

Being a pump man is not a fun job. Nobody wants to hear you can't be right over and they throw a fit over how much it will cost. But it is not good for me that they started the day with soap in their hair they can't get out. Lol!

That is why I always say you want to make sure the pump is running before you get in the shower. You are much less likely that the pump will fail while it is running and more likely to get the soap washed off if you make sure the pump is running before getting in the shower. The best way to do that is to use a small pressure tank. I use a 10 gallon size tank with my 2HP, 25 GPM pump. The tank only holds 2 gallons of water. But just like the 119 gallon tank is not likely to have 30 gallons in it when you get in the shower, my 10 gallon tank is not likely to have the whole 2 gallons it is when I start the shower. With my 3 GPM shower head I may have to wait for 30 seconds before the pump starts, but usually not. Never the less I will stand there and wait until I see the lights flicker, which means the pump started. Then I instantly see the change to strong constant pressure in the shower and I know it will be that way for 5 minutes or 30 minutes. Heck it will stay strong and constant for a month or a year if I decide to shower for that long, because pumps are made to run continuously 24/7/365, it is the cycling on and off that kills them. I have a pump feeding a stock tank that hasn't shut off since 1999.

Oh, and I should say the small tank will not work without a Cycle Stop Valve. Without the CSV the small tank would cause the pump to cycle on and off multiple times during a shower, giving the pump multiple opportunities to fail and multiply the chances you won't get the soap out of your hair. Lol!

I know our brains tell us the larger the pressure tank the better. But this is one of those things that is truly counter intuitive.

 

[WellDigger]

Hmmm..........

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Hmmm..........

Seems I may finally have your attention? Here is what a few hundred most recent customers have to say about the CSV and small tank thing. It is nothing new. I have reviews from over 30 years ago as well.

Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[WellDigger]

Yes, you would if I was not trying to set up for off grid living.

My issues/concerns are power outages from snow, wind and rain storms, brown outs and a possible low yielding well. Ten hundred thousand CVS devices will not help me with that when I want to take a shower.

Being able to look at the tank pressure gauge and knowing I have enough water for a quick shower without interruption from above scenarios is the game plan. Second option is to have a backup generator to run the pump, but, A) I dont feel like messing with a generator, B) trying to do calculations to make said generator run and C) when I am done working and just want to relax and end the day. If I HAVE to deal with A and B, I will, but, i would rather work them out of the equation if I am able to plan ahead.

 

[Reach4]

If you look at the pressure gauge before a planned shower, and the pressure gauge only shows half way full, you can poke the armature with a plastic rod. The tank will fill up, and the pump will shut off.

 

[WellDigger]

But I still need to know what size tank I would need (assuming I am using a 60PSI starting point) to run a 15 gallon shower, before the water stops. If I have to put a tower above my roof, I might just do that, but, on ground level, what do I need, 200, 300 600 gallon tank, or?

 

[Reach4]

15*4= 60 gallon tank. I would round that up to maybe 119 gallons. ;-) Your minimum size would be WX-251, 62.0 gallons.

Actually the WX302 86 gallon tank will probably last longer, because the bladder does not have to stretch as much. Downside is that it takes more floor space.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-WX-302-WX-302-150S1-86-Gal-WELL-X-TROL-Well-Tank-Stand

In stock.



Water worker are decent, and I think the A O Smith might be my second choice after Well-X-Trol. Both A O Smith and Well-X-Trol use a butyl diaphragm.
https://www.lowes.com/search?search...2,4294522090,4294548665,4294726818,3240995607

Water Worker 119 Gal. Pressurized Well Tank HT119B - The Home Depot

Use the Water Worker 119 Gal. Pressurized Well Tank as a direct-fit replacement for the majority of installed well tank bases. This pre-charged tank is constructed from durable deep-drawn steel and is

www.homedepot.com

My opinions are from reading and not experience.

 

[WellDigger]

15*4= 60 gallon tank. I would round that up to maybe 119 gallons. ;-) Your minimum size would be WX-251, 62.0 gallons.

Actually the WX302 86 gallon tank will probably last longer, because the bladder does not have to stretch as much. Downside is that it takes more floor space.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-WX-302-WX-302-150S1-86-Gal-WELL-X-TROL-Well-Tank-Stand

In stock.



Water worker are decent, and I think the A O Smith might be my second choice after Well-X-Trol. Both A O Smith and Well-X-Trol use a butyl diaphragm.
https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=pressure tank&refinement=4294522089,1559814127,4294551089,4294551102,4294522090,4294548665,4294726818,3240995607

Water Worker 119 Gal. Pressurized Well Tank HT119B - The Home Depot

Use the Water Worker 119 Gal. Pressurized Well Tank as a direct-fit replacement for the majority of installed well tank bases. This pre-charged tank is constructed from durable deep-drawn steel and is

www.homedepot.com

My opinions are from reading and not experienc

Thank you kind sir!

 

[Valveman]

A 62 gallon size pressure tank will give you 15 gallons of water, IF it happened to be full when the power goes off. If you knew when the power was going off and could do a bump fill of the pressure tank, you would have 15 gallons to use. Murphy's law says there will only be about 1 gallon in any size pressure tank when the power goes off, because we never know when it will happen.

A generator is the only way to get water from the well during a power outage. But you could have a cistern or storage tank with 500-1000 gallons stored to use during power outages. A generator would only be needed if the power outage lasted long enough that you used all 1000 gallons from the cistern tank. The cistern would be set up where it is always full, and you would have some real water stored for power outages. The cistern is also the way to handle a low producing well, as it will let a 1 GPM well put 1440 gallons in a cistern in 24 hours. The booster pump in the cistern can then supply as much flow as needed for a limited time, and you would not be limited to the amount the low producing well will make.

You can also add an RV type pump to the cistern that would run off a 12V battery and solar or trickle charger. The 30/50 pressure switch in the RV pump would automatically take over when the booster pump in the cistern lost power and did come on at 40 PSI as it should with a 40/60 switch. In other words it would let you get the soap out of your hair even if the power outage happened WHILE you are in the shower. A 12V RV pump is an easy adder to a booster pump system.

You can also use a 119 gallon contact tank instead of a pressure tank. The 119 gallon contact tank placed before a regular pressure tank would always have 119 gallons of fresh water available for use during a power outage. A 12V RV pump with a battery can be installed to draw water from the contact tank and send it through the regular booster pump when the power is off. At least this way you know the 119 gallon tank is always full, no matter what is in the pressure tank.

 

[John Gayewski]

Your only realistic option for what you insist you need, is a water tower. Just build one. It's as reliable as gravity. The power going out won't mean you get a shower unless you do.

Otherwise a generator or solar panels with storage are the only realistic way to have a shower with the power company down.

At this point you might be open to the idea of renting a trencher and just running a water line from the nearest service

 

[Valveman]

A water tower has its own set of problems. First of which is that it takes 2.31' elevation to make even 1 PSI. Just sitting a tank on top of the house won't give much pressure. The tower would need to be 46' tall just to get 20 PSI in the house. City water towers are at least 115' tall to get 50 PSI out.

 

[John Gayewski]

A water tower has its own set of problems. First of which is that it takes 2.31' elevation to make even 1 PSI. Just sitting a tank on top of the house won't give much pressure. The tower would need to be 46' tall just to get 20 PSI in the house. City water towers are at least 115' tall to get 50 PSI out.

With no power is the only way to take a shower. The pressure isn't really much of a factor if there's no power and you just want a shower. Getting the volume for a shower would be the main concern.

 

[LLigetfa]

Murphy's law says there will only be about 1 gallon in any size pressure tank when the power goes off, because we never know when it will happen.

^^THIS^^
When purchasing a replacement backup generator, I got one that can run my pump and wired it up for a quick and easy hookup.

Portable Generator L14-30 Hookup

I am looking to connect a 5000W portable generator through the exterior wall. The generator has an L14-30 240V outlet so I need a cord to go from it to a wall penetration box as well as the wallbox. I found the following but am open to suggestions...

terrylove.com

 

[LLigetfa]

BTW, due to the high iron content, I have two air-over-water (hyrdopneumatic) tanks, one of which is modified to maintain less air so there is a considerable reserve of water when the 40 PSI kick-in setting would normally start the pump.

Pentair Wellmate HP-7 tank

At first I wanted to buy replacement parts for my existing HP-7. https://www.pentair.com/en/products/tanks/pentair-wellmate-residential-products/pentair-wellmate-tank-accessories-replacement-parts.html I contacted Pentair and they said parts were available in Canada. My dealer claims they...

terrylove.com

 

[WellDigger]

Yea, its got me thinking..... Either a 30-40 gallon holding tank (now I have to figure which kind of tank) with a backup pump, like a small jet pump my small generator can push, and, or, use one of my (I have 4 or 5) Sure-Flow pumps my little gen can push. I dont think my gen's can push a well pump.

But that doesnt get me through a shower when I am already all soaped up. Might have to figure a compromise.

 

[Valveman]

Look at retention tanks. Installed prior to any size pressure tank a retention tank with an air vent in the top will still be full when the power goes off. Then a sure flow or any 12V RV pump can draw water from the retention tank and pass it by the pressure tank on the way to the shower. Placing a check valve in the line between the retention tank and the pressure tank then installing a tee before the check valve and another tee after the check valve will give a place to plumb in the 12V RV pump. Most RV pump use a fairly low pressure switch setting like 30/50. So, if you use a 40/60 switch on the well pump the 12V pump will come on automatically when the main well pump fails to come on at 40.

 

[WellDigger]

Look at retention tanks. Installed prior to any size pressure tank a retention tank with an air vent in the top will still be full when the power goes off. Then a sure flow or any 12V RV pump can draw water from the retention tank and pass it by the pressure tank on the way to the shower. Placing a check valve in the line between the retention tank and the pressure tank then installing a tee before the check valve and another tee after the check valve will give a place to plumb in the 12V RV pump. Most RV pump use a fairly low pressure switch setting like 30/50. So, if you use a 40/60 switch on the well pump the 12V pump will come on automatically when the main well pump fails to come on at 40.

I actually ran into a retention tank video yesterday looking for something else. Came at the same time I was browsing here, oddly enough. I came up with a manual switching setup between the 2 tanks, but, I had not thought about an auto setup. Maybe a deep cycle battery and a 12v sureflow would do the trick? I will look into that idea also, thanks.