Ok...I posted this and never got an answer...

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by abikerboy, Aug 6, 2007.

  1. abikerboy

    abikerboy DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    VA
    ...so I took the well mans suggestions. I have 2 challenger pressure tanks (pc-144) under my house,...just installed, to replace a blown goulds tank burried in my front yard. The installers suggestion was to also install 2 model pc-88 tanks...one under each of the other two homes on the well to smooth out their water flow, and since finding a super deal online on the pc-88's, I have ordered two of them, which he will install. Now Im asking for suggestions on a constant pressure valve (csv), proper installation in my case, (order of setup is my well, single line from well to manifold valve serving two other homes located between the well and the tanks, and from there, same single line runs into my home where the two pc-144 tanks are located), AND...also, a new well pump in my future, and going by what the well man says, not a floating stack unit like the goulds that is currently in the well. I have very clean water, no sand, and he says that a fixed stack pump will last longer (I want a franklin motor only). Anyway, my useage...my home, just me, with the occasional guests (usually weekly, fri, sat and sunday, with 3 children), second home, single nephew with 4 kids every weekend, third home, my mom, with numerous guests. heavy to moderate water useage on all 3 homes. Current pump...goulds 10ej10422, 1 hp, 10gpm, installed in 1993. Well, 225 ft depth, pump set at 205, spring fed, tested at 14 gpm during a hot dry summer. CSV and new pump will be installed next spring.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2007
  2. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    CSV1-60 installed in the well or before the first tee off the line. That is way more tanks than you need with the CSV but, it won't hurt anything. Just need to set your pressure switch about 45/65 so it won't take to long to fill the tanks after the last faucet is turned off.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2007
  3. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    What Rancher means is that until you use up all the water in the tanks, the pressure will continue to drop from 65 down to 45. Then once the pump has started the pressure will increase for a couple of minutes from 45 to 60. Only then will it stay exactly at 60, and then only as long as someone continues using water. When all the outlets have been turned off, then for another couple of minutes the pressure will increase from 60 to 65 and the pump shuts off.

    The larger or the more tanks you have, the longer it takes to empty and refill them which is what causes the changes in pressure. As soon as the pump comes on and the Cycle Stop Valve finally gets to do it's job, you will have constant pressure.

    There is a trade off. The larger the tank, the longer the pump stays off, and the less times it cycles, which is good. However, the more you depend on water from the tanks, the greater the difference in pressure you will have to endure for longer periods of time.

    With the CSV and a smaller tank, you get to enjoy constant pressure almost immediately after opening a faucet, and the pressure remains constant for as long as you are using the water. However, the pump must start very soon after you turn on a faucet, and it must continue to run until you turn off all water being used. This can actually cause less cycling of the pump than a system with larger tanks, which is good for the pump. Depending on the actual amount of water being used, the CSV system can cost you a couple of bucks a month, or it can save you a couple of bucks on the electric bill.

    If you really want constant pressure, you don't need to be using much of a pressure tank. Because it is the pressure tank that causes the pressure to swing from 40 to 60, not the CSV.

    The CSV works fine with a small tank or several large ones. It is just a matter of preference. What the CSV gives you is peace of mind about who is using water (when, where, or how much), and how it is effecting your pump. The CSV was designed to take care of your pump, no matter how much or how little water you are using, or for how long. The constant pressure is just a beneficial side effect.

    Without the CSV, using pressure tanks only, someone or everyone in the house or houses, will find a way to use just enough water to make the pump cycle itself to death.

    BTW a Watts or almost any other pressure reducing valve has reduced pressure falloff and will not maintain a constant pressure and your pump will still cycle itself to death. But an explanation is for another story.
  4. abikerboy

    abikerboy DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    VA
    Ok, I think I understand this. I need to forget about putting the pc88 tanks under the other two houses. I want the storage (the tank) small enough so it will empty quickly and start the pump so the csv can take over. Right? Now for the tank that was just installed...there are two pc144 tanks hooked together under the house (44 gallon, I think). If I remove one of these when I install the csv, will that work out ok? Rancher, thanks for your input here as well. I know you had tried out a csv, so Im listening to you as well. As for a pressure regulating valve, when the system was on a 60/80 switch, I had one. It has been removed now, and the pressure switch dropped to 40/60, and while I did like the even pressure(actually that's what spoiled me) I have noticed without it that I have more water flow for running several outlets at the same time. My main concern is pump life. Myy pump is around 14 or 15 years old, serving 3 houses. The well man says Im on borrowed time because that pump has seen close to 45 years in accumulated useage while pumping for 3 houses. Were saving up for a new pump, and I want the csv to reduce the stress of cycling on a new pump. I dont really care about whether it will save electricity, or if it will use more. It doesnt cost much to run the well anyway. I just want everything to last longer this time around.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2007
  5. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    "I wouldn't remove any tanks from your setup."
    That depends on what you are trying to achieve.

    "And they make different sized PRV, the larger ones handle more capacity."
    Nearly all direct acting pressure reducing valves have about 25 PSI of pressure loss with such low differential pressure as 60/80 to 50. It is the spring and diaphragm you are fighting, not the size of the throat of the valve. So even a 2" valve will have almost the same "friction loss" as a 1" valve. On the other side of the tank, as a CSV, you have more differential pressure to work with and you have less of a pressure loss through the valve.

    "when the current bladder tank goes I'm back to the old style galvanized tank. Just call me old fashioned, but it seems to work, at least for me."
    For someone who would check the air volume daily, a galv tank would be one more thing to get to tinker with.

    "CSV Pros:"
    "Keeps the pump from cycling, reduces it to about half."
    Sometimes a LOT more than half, either way it is a good thing.

    "Constant pressure after one cycle if you continue to use water."
    Translation; It allows you to use some water from a tank for small uses such as ice makers and a few toilet flushes, and then holds constant pressure for ANYTHING else that is a little longer term use of water such as showers and sprinklers. Which are two very good things. Both of these things cannot be accomplished very well with other type constant pressure systems.

    "CSV Cons:"
    "One more thing to break."
    It is a simple valve. Has one moving part. Basically less parts than most faucets. Similar valves used for other purposes, being different only by not having the patented bypass, are still working after more than 40 years of service.

    "You never see that 60psi in the shower again."
    Use a 60 psi CSV and you will see 60psi in the shower indefinitely.

    "Uses more electricity."
    If you supply irrigation, heat pump, or almost any uses other than just a house, the CSV will actually reduce energy use. Even for just a house it is only about $3 per month and still makes the entire pump system last longer.

    "Makes the pump run twice as long."
    For a pump running is a good thing, cycling is not.

    "Increases the head pressure on your pump close to cutoff."
    What engineers call "counter intuitive", higher pressures actually makes a pumps work easier. That is one of the things that makes the pump last longer. Most people would think that choking back a pump with a valve would make it work harder. That is one of the reasons the CSV is hard to understand, but it's really works that way.

    "Did I miss anything?"
    ??
  6. abikerboy

    abikerboy DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    VA
    Thanks for the info. guys, as for the electricity issue, that does not matter to me at all. The bill to run the well is very small anyway (around $20), and it is split 3 ways. I have used the pressure regulating valve...largest available for my line, and I have recently discovered that I do not like the reduced flow that I had, even with the constant pressure! I filled my hot tub last week in 20 minutes...before took over an hour! My goal is to replace the pump, and to make the new one last. A lost friend to us all (vaplumber) that was once here had some sort of a test jig for everything that you could imagine, from sink faucets to toilets! He even had a refrigerator compressor with the case cut away, running in a tank of oil so he could show everyone what makes your fridge, a/c, or freezer die early. Planned obsolescense, he called it. Simple problems to solve, but problems that were designed into certain things to keep us coming back to buy new ones over and over. Ive seen a submersible pump start and stop in a see through tank, and have saw how the pump and motor coupler bounces up and down each time the pump starts and stope (upthrust, I think he called it, and was told that it can never be completely stopped), and Ive seen the cutaway of a bladder tank, and of the bladder sweeling and shrinking each time the pump runs and the water is drawn off. I also have seen how that about 2/3 of pump failures are from motor/shaft couplers, and impeller hubs broken because of the bouncing up and down force of upthrust. My issue is, Im overhauling my water system piece by piece as I can afford it, and I want the new stuff to last for a while. I understand that no pump that I buy today will ever see 15 years of use pumping for 3 houses, and for 3 families, but I want to get what I can out of it! My neighbor just replaced her submersible pump last year, installed in 1962 (dont know what brand) and she not only runs a farm, but has a rental house on the pump as well. Oh, only for the days...lol!!! As for the galvanized tank rancher, yea, if it was just me on the well, I'd probably have one. I dont like the idea of ballons that can burst, and fooling with a failed tank in the middle of the winter, but I do remember growing up, and how my job as the most energetic kid was at the first of every other month, I'd head to the basement with a bicycle pump, and I'd pump my lungs out just to keep the pump working right. I'd open a faucet on the back of the house, let the pump run, and when the air would start hissing from the valve on the end of the tank, I'd stop pumping! If I didnt do it two or three times in a row, or lied about doing it, the pump would run everytime a faucet was opened, and about half way through a shower, the water would start spurting like a waterpick, and youd get a face full of rust and orange water! The bladder tank for me...15 years in the ground, never added air, or even thought about it! Give me 15 more years of this, and I'll do whatever it takes!
  7. abikerboy

    abikerboy DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    VA
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2007
  8. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    With a 44 gallon actual size tank use a 60 psi CSV with a 50/70 pressure switch. About the time you have the temperature adjusted in the shower, you will have a constant 60 psi.
  9. abikerboy

    abikerboy DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    VA
    Hi rancher...
    Nope...no recirculating pump for my hot water. the heater is in a utility closet directly behind the main bathroom, so that's not the issue. I have 3 houses on my well all together, one with my elderly mother, who is also the family babysitter, another house with a nephew who has 4 kids, and my house, with me, and various children in and out at all times. I come in dirty and muddy at night, turn on the sprinkler for my small veggie garden, throw the dirty clothes in the washer, and dive into the shower, so between all of us doing laundry, bathing kids, and my mom watering her garden and flowerbeds as well, that pump is working its tail off. Ive been advised that with two seperate water leaks since december, and the pump cycling almost constantly every 15 minutes for almost 7 months that I'd better plan on replacing the around 15 year old pump soon...was told I'd be lucky to get another year out of it, and I know that whatever goes in the hole today will never see the life that the old one has seen, hence the desire for the csv, so my goal is to buy all of the pieces as I can afford to accumulate them, and when that time comes (if it carries me through till spring, I'll make that the time), I have a buddy with a derrick truck, and I'll have it all laying here ready to go in. Ive thought about electrical devices, have studied them in school, and have learned about them over the last year with even more hands on experience. I can blow a brand new lightbulb in less than 15 minutes by standing at the switch and turning it on and off over and over, so thinking about that, I figured I could make the pump that I want to replace last longer by keeping it running when the water is on, instead of allowing it to turn on and off over and over again. I love constant pressure, but my aim is to stretch the life out on a new pump...I hate it when my phone rings at 4 or 5 a.m. on a cold morning because someone doesnt have water.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2007
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