New Driven well but low yield problem

[Shallow Well]

Hello, I live in an area in central Minnesota with $110-$200 water bills/month (thats right per month) just for lawn sprinklers. So I decided to drive a well to remedy the high cost of water.

I drove a 1 1/4 pipe with a 36'' point down 18 feet and no water in the pipe. I then drove down to 25.5' and could not drive any further due to a hard layer. I have water in the pipe now siting static at 17.5 feet below the basement floor. I hooked up the hand pump and it pumps somewhat hard. I hooked up the 1/2 hp jet pump and have a flow rate of 2.5 gpm, or 2 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket.

I have stuck the hose down to flush the point, and have also spun the well pipe but spins very hard with a pipe wrench and a 3' extension on the wrench. I thought about pulling the well pipe up a little at a time and checking for flow rate to see if the well could be improved.

The well is driven in a sand soil. The sand seems somewhat fine and not quite clay but maybe a close relative.

I would like to improve the flow rate to at least 5 GPM to run a lawn sprinkler or 2, any ideas or suggestions would be very well recieved.

 

[Speedbump]

Driving a point into the ground is a blind event. To check for water, you should use a handpump every five feet. If you hit a hard layer and can't get through it, moving over may help or it may not. Sounds like your close, and you may have gone too far. But which way to proceed is nothing but a matter of choice.

bob...

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Shallow Well]

Tough time pulling well out!

Today I have the well driven down to roughly 25 feet with water standing in the pipe at around 17 feet with 2.5 gpm. This is not enough for my needs to run a lawn sprinkler. So after work I set up the well puller and attempted to pull the well to find better flow.

After spinning the well pipe to free it up with much effort and a 4' extension on the pipe wrench I proceded to pull the pipe up. In the process of attempting to pull the pipe the pipe puller with a 7 foot handle crimped on the pipe and crushed it enough to consider it trash and i only got the pipe up about half an inch.

My question is does anyone have experience on pulling up a 1 1/4 inch stubborn driven well. It would be helpful to learn any techniques or equipment suggestions that would make the job a success.

And thank you speedbump for the quick reply on my first post!

 

[mas3372]

I tried driving a point today, only got it down 8' before I hit solid. What I did worked, not sure if it will work for you since you are down quite a bit father. I put a pipe wrench on the pipe with one just above it to keep it in place and put a 3 ton hydraulic car jack under the wrench against the pipe and pumped it up 1' at a time. It may be worth a shot.

 

[Speedbump]

We used to use a Railroad Spike puller, a 4x4, a chain and pipe wrench to hold the chain in place on the pipe. Once the chain and pipe wrench (using a clove hitch around the chain with the wrench above it with someone pulling up on the handle to make it bite into the pipe) were in place, the other guy would get on the end of the spike puller (5' long) and jump up and down on it until it hit the floor, then we would take another bite. All this is done after turning the pipe clockwise several revolutions.

The jack idea might work fine, but it is damned dangerous if you get several ton of pressure on it and it slips out. It might act somewhat like a bullet.

bob...

 

[Shallow Well]

I can see success in this project!

Good news for tonight! After trashing on the pipe with a well puller and its 10' handle and not getting the well up even a milimeter out came the 12 ton hydrolic jacks. It took 2 - 12 ton hydrolic jacks (potental for 48 thousand pounds of upward force) and some pipe wrenches to pull the pipe up. It was tough going at first (care for safety must used). The well pipe came up with very powerfull jolts that shook the basement floor but after about 10'' of this it came up with ease

All in all tonight i brought the pipe up from 26 feet to 24 feet. I spun the pipe and it turned easy. Hooked up the hand pump and had good flow. Hooked up the jet pump and filled a 5 gallon bucket in 1min 15 seconds, just over 4 gpm wich is getting closer to a usable flow for lawn irrigation.

Had some air bubbles come up through the hose (i had bubbles from the start). The pump with a tank goes nuclear on and off if i kink the hose so i guess i will have to pull up the well and replace some pipe to make it airtight.

All in all I am starting to consider this to be good news as things are improving and getting more gpm everytime I mess with it.

Thanks to all for your thoughts and advice it was very well received and put to productive use...

 

[Speedbump]

I don't know if you tried pumping it at a little higher elevation before you got to your deepest point, but since you have it moving, coming up a little more might prove even better.

bob...

 

[Greg Mueller]

You could always fill a small (or large) cistern with "free" water and pump out of that to sprinkle

 

[Shallow Well]

Replaced all driven pipe!

I thought I had a leak in the well pipe so I pulled it and replaced it. This time I set the point down 24'. At this depth I have 7' of water from the tip of the point wich gives me 4' over the screen of the point. I am still getting airbubbles.

I believe the 1/2 hp Wayne SWS50 is cavitating. On open flow the pump does not sound like its cavitating untill i close the valve and let the pressure build up in the tank over 24lbs where the cavitating becomes more audible. I adjusted the pressure swith to shut the pump off at 35lbs and this is where i believe the cavitating has climbed enough to break the threshold of possible pump damage

When I replaced the pipe and had it out of the well I ran the point through the hose to clean it. To my suprise the point filled up and ran over with the garden hose. I noted this and cleaned it pretty good and ridding the sediment from the screen and had full hose with water comeing out of the bottom of the point (Its a cambel 36' point 60mesh screen) .

I then dropped the well down to 24'. I had good hand pump action at this depth It was a little hard to pump, but no handle kickback. Next hooked up the jet pump and got well over 4.5 gpm but still has air bubbles and slight cavitation noise from the pump. I believe the screen on the point is restricted with sediment and starving the pump just enough to make it cavitate slightly. Or could it be that pumping water up 19' from static water level to the pump is enough to strain the pump into cavitation. At almost 5gpm flow I dont think but it could just be starving for more water that its takeing from the medium around the point!

So far I plan to take a pressure washer hose and stuff it down the well with a spinning radial nozle to blast out the screen. Im going to start with a very low pressure and check for results.

With all said, any suggestions or concerns that may help from some one who has been there and done this I very much want to hear from!!!
and thanks to all again who have posted helpful comments!!!

 

[Sammyhydro11]

I will explain to you a good way to develop that well. If you do it, you should get good results.

Thread a tee into the top of the well. Plumb your hand pump On top of the tee. On the discharge of the tee, you will need a threaded ball valve. Once you get that all plumbed together,start pumping the well with the ball valve closed. Pump the well until the water is clear, then open that ball valve all the way up. Wait a a minute or so and then do the same thing. Every time you go to pump the well the water should be dirty and that is from the column of water dropping down the well and out through the screen. What you are doing is surging the screen and stirring up all the fine material packed around it. All the fine material is what is restricting the water from coming into the well. Continue doing that until the water no longer gets dirty. This developing procedure takes patience but is very affective

The pressure washer thing will take too much time. Each time you send it down the well to stir up that material, you will have to pull it out and pump the fines. It's easier to just open the ball valve, wait for the column of water to drop, close the ball valve, and start pumping again.

Good luck,

Sammy

 

[Speedbump]

Your pump is not cavitating at pressure. They only cavitate when they are pulling hard. At pressure, the vacuum is relaxed.

bob...

 

[Shallow Well]

Im stumped so far. The well is producing close to 5 gpm and this is what i am more than happy with, but I am getting a stream of small airbubbles comeing out of the hose. The pump also makes a sound that i think is cavitation. If I stick a garden hose on city water down the well pipe it will take full hose with out spilling over the top. I have heard that a well can only put out as much water as it can take in with a garden hose, and it is takeing in lots more than my pump can pump out which is good!

I have checked all the fittings and have not found an airleak but small airbubbles still flow out the hose. The pump does not lose prime even after a night and a day or 20 hours. I plug it in and instant water which is also good and possible evidence that i do not have an airleak below the check (one way valve). The union as far as i know is not leaking. I have taped it off with a plastic bag and submerged it totally in water and that checked out good, meaning i still had airbubbles comeing out of the hose.

Could the pump cavitate and by cavitating cause the airbubbles??? Or could i have missed an airleak?

I am pumping from pump level to static water level a total of 18.5 feet. After i figure in the draw down water level while pumping I may be approaching 20 feet from water to pump!

As of now the pump is running and has been running one sprink for close to two hours at a consistant pressure of 30psi (cut off is set at 34psi) and great flow. The motor has not over heated. All is good on a productive level, but the airbubbles and possible cavitation concern me in the long term!!


Any advice?

If i have an air leak will the air damage the pump?
Or if i have moderate to slight caviation will that ruin the pump?
Or would it be wise to just live with it and use it as is?

 

[Sammyhydro11]

What has me stumped is why you haven't attempted to develop this well. All that typing for nothing i guess.

Sammy

 

[Speedbump]

Sammy's right. The only time a pump cavitates is when it tries to pull more water than the well will produce, or the water level is practically at the pumps maximum lift. Your lift is near the max but the pump should not cavitate at that depth. Five gallons per minute is not a lot of water, but through a garden hose, that's probably all that can be forced through it. So your really not testing the pumps actual ability or the wells.

Ditch the hose and let that pump run full blast. That will help develop it and if you really want to do it right, do like Sammy said.

bob...

 

[Shallow Well]

Sammy/speedbump,

Thanks for your help so far. I did follow your advice and used the hand pump to clear the fines from the well, it took a couple hours to clear the fines but the well has been developed and alot of time has been taken in to hand pumping and surging...

 

[Shallow Well]

Starting from scratch!

Its time to start over from scratch!

I believe the airbubbles are comeing from a bad joint in the Well Pipe. When i put my ear to the pipe I can hear air bubbles through the pipe every so often. So I pulled the well up again with a fake smile. As a Do it yourselfer with minimal stumbleing plumbing and well experience this is all trial and error. Although as general trend this well moveing towards success with close to 5gpm minus the buggs along the way.

So moving forward!

Starting with the wellpoint,

I have a campbell 36'' 60 gauze. Does anyone have an opinion on this point. My local hardware store said it is rated for an average of 7.2gpm from I managed to plug it up twice possibly due to short well development time ( will do better next time sammyhydro11, speedbump). I paid $48 for it. I do not have the funds to by a high buck full stainless well point so this was the best i can muster for now.



Next and most importantly the well pipe fittings,

So far I have moderate airleaks for the second time on the suction side below the stop valve. I have used Oatey pipe joint compound with PTFE, and lots of it on each joint. Both times had airleaks even with 24'' pipe wrenches on heavy duty drive cuplings and $24.99/5' high quality USA sch 40 drive pipe. I tightened the pipe very frequently as i drove it down.

This time after reading other posts I am considering blue (the blue is a little thicker) teflon tape plus the pipe paste. Any thoughts???

Oh and one final thought for tonight, Is the Red Lion RJS-50 a worthy pump. And is it worthy for water sprinklers In a thirsty Minnesota subarban lot sized yard? 70X150. Just an opinion question!!!

Thanks again for all who have contributed to this post, to some it may seem mundane, but for Do it yourselfers like me it is very valuable!!!

 

[Speedbump]

I am not that familiar with Red Lion pumps, so I can't comment on them. The screen though will give you about 1/5th of what a good slotted screen would. This is probably a lot of your problem.

60 gauze is equal to a ten slot. If you weren't getting any sand, you could probably go to a larger slot size and get more water. You can also buy extensions for screens that put more screen area in the aquifer. I have a handful of stainless slotted screens that my dad turned over to me when he retired. I sell them for $50.00 each. That's probably half their normal price, but since we don't have a need for them, I just want to find them a new home.bob...

 

[Gary Slusser]

I'll be damned if I'd suck water out from under my cellar floor to water vegetation that couldn't survive without me buying equipment and paying electric to water it!

You get water running under your cellar floor and foundation, you may need to pump to keep things dry, even in August!

 

[Shallow Well]

Update

Some interesting things happened in the last couple days since I installed my new Stainless steel slotted point.

First I have to thank SpeedBump (Bob) for selling me a hard to find supreme quality well point at a very fair price! Bob has helped me greatly both on this forum and over the phone to get this well going.

After I installed the new wellpoint the developing began with a hand pump. I couldnt believe all the fine sand i was pumping. The water was very dirty and every 5 gallons with the hand pump i could grab a hand full of sand in the bottom of the bucket. So after about 60 gallons of hand pumping with just as much sand from the begining to the end maybe 1/2gallon total of sand it was time to hook up a pump to do the work for me. After failing to locate a more powerful rental pump i just hooked up my 1/2 horse pump. To my suprise the sand cleared up and the water was crystol clear after about 10 gallons.

Now I know (sammyhydro11) that the well is not fully developed to its full capacity in this seemingly fine sand, but i am pumping a gallon/ minute over what i have been getting with the junk point i had. As the well sits now it exceeds my origional expectations. Now with more proper development it could improve.

Now for the interesting thing! With the half horse pump pumping full open with a 1'' pipe on the pressure side i still had airbubbles, Damn i thought not another airleak. The pump made slight cavitation sound. The water flow was greatly improved with the new point, but still the airbubbles. Then after hooking up the garden hose and turning down the valve on the pressure side to a strong 5 gallons/min the airbubbles stoped. No more air, and the pump ran smooth as silk at 30 psi 5 gpm. Wow, this is good. Maybe with more well development I could run the pump full blast, but i cant expect to much with the soil conditions that exist. Like i said before everytime i monkey with this well i seem to get more water.

Thanks again to all who contributed to this post!