Need a Water Softner! Which One?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by tnewman10, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    So I am in need of a water softener. I had a 5 year old Kenmore and the resin tank blew up. It didn’t do a very good job and left iron deposits in my toilet and tub, and turned my t-shirts orangish. I do have a whole house fileter. I had the water tested and it was a 31 hardness with 2 ppm of iron in it. I want a softener that will eliminate the iron issues, it really is an issue for me, I have a touch of OCD. The water dude recommended a 22,000 grain Aqua Systems Smart Choice (http://ilovemywater.com/Res-Products.aspx?ID=13) for a bunch of money. I can put one in myself but didn’t see any place on line to purchase this model. It kinda looks like a Clack WS-1 (say like this http://www.affordablewater.us/Clack-WS1-Metered-32000-Grain-Water-Softener-P402C145.aspx) to me, is it the same thing? Is there a better model I can order? Another water guy recommended a 32,000 grain model. I have 2 bathrooms and 2 people living in my home… Please give me some direction…
  2. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The first link, they don't sell online. They are a multiple location local dealer. The control valve is a Clack that is highly modified so you can take it off a tank adapter to take it in for service and swap it or have them fix it. I suggest that they are very pricey.

    The second is a competitor of mine. Every few weeks I hear from a customer of theirs and they need programming information. In comparing their softeners to mine, they usually aren't the same thing, smaller tank etc. and they don't include everything I do. So be careful, you get less from them and next to no help in in sizing or programming. Their instructions are very weak also.

    To correctly size a water softener Click Here
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  3. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    Thanks for the tips fellas. I thought the price was little high for the Aqua system, but I am just tired of the iron stains.... Do either of you have any model recommendations for me to fix up my iron issues?
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    What size do you need? That matters and dictates what control valve you can use.
  5. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    Some where between a 22000 and 32000 grain from what the two water guys I have talked to told me... Probably better get the 32000 grain to be safe... 2 people in home 2 baths...
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I take it you didn't visit my sizing and calculator pages.
  7. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    Here is what I am working with...

    19 cups per 10 seconds
    1.875 gallons per 10 seconds

    7.125 GPM

    31 hardness + (2ppm iron * 4)(8) + 0 maganese =39gpg compensated hardness

    2 people * 60gal/person/day = 120 * 39 compensated hardness = 4680 * 8 days =

    37440 grains

    That is a higher than what the water guys recommended, but I guess I did tell them just one person, I have decided to include my girlfriend in my calculations because she stays over a lot.... LOL
  8. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    As to the K of regenerated capacity, 37440. You round that up to 38K and find the volume of resin in cuft that gives you a salt dose efficiency of at least 3333 grains/lb.; which is a 2.0 cuft unit at less than 12 lbs/regeneration. And a regeneration on average of once every 8 days based on the number of gallons on the meter, 974.

    I would tell you that until she moves in permanently, she's a guest and then program for her usage. In the mean time it will regenerate based on gallons used, sooner than once every 8 days adn go back up when she isn't there.

    The constant SFR gpm of that size (2.0') gives you more than enough gpm based on your figures, which isn't the way to come up with your peak demand gpm...
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You can't get more than 30K back into a 1.0 cuft softener AND, to do that you need 15 lbs of salt/regeneration. Which is a very poor salt efficiency of only 2000 grains/lb. Plus you then regenerate more frequently then once a week, and will use more water than a larger unit set up correctly and, you only have a 9 gpm constant SFR.

    In other words, it is too small for good salt and water efficiency and probably too small for the peak demand of the house.
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Not that Fleck is a bad choice, but there are a fairly large number of national brand companies that have stopped using Fleck and went to Clack control valves. Many plumbing supply houses have gone to Clack along with many local dealers.

    IMO, based on 6 yrs and over 1300 sold, Clack is head and shoulders better than Fleck, and I sold Fleck for over 18 years.
  11. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    So I am really a newbie to all of this... You guys are not talking demand system, you are talking about me having to set up a timer.... I think I want something that generates when it needs to.. Cause I know i would screw up the setting of the timer.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Where do you get that from, all of us talk demand initiated/metered control valves.

    Read this again; And a regeneration on average of once every 8 days based on the number of gallons on the meter, 974.

    974/120 gals/day for a family of 2 = a regeneration every 8.116666666, or on average every 8 days. A softener should be sized for a regeneration once every 7-9 days; that's for metered or time clock controls.
  13. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    ahhhh... OK I get ya... So Gary everyone else has selected a particular model that they recommend... What exact model do you recommend for my needs and how much is this bad boy gonna cost me... Give me a link to it if you got one..
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    A particular model?

    The Clack-WS1 CS is a brand (model?) of control valve and I also gave you the correct size of the softener, a 2.0 cuft (model?). Maybe I don't understand "model", I'm talking is a two tank type softener, meaning it has a resin tank and separate salt tank next to it, the same as everyone else is talking about.

    For pricing of sizes not on my web site, you have to call me. You have to call me to get the right peak demand figure for your house anyway. That may change the size (model?) and the price.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    My theory, "won't rinse enough.... only using a portion of it". LOL

    I've been successfully treating up to 5 ppm of iron like this for 23 years now.

    Proving like I've told you before, you don't know what you don't know. And won't listen to anything but what you think you know. So do it anyway you want to and I'll do it the way I do it. The difference is in our customers' water, salt and water efficiencies. And you can go to the Customer comments page on my forum and see what they say, We can't see what your customer says about your way though.

    Anyway, your 32k requires 15 lbs of salt per regeneration and will only get 30K actually. That is a fact proven by any resin manufacturers' spec sheet on the resin you use.

    15 lbs and 30K gets your customer into a poor salt efficiency of 30,000/15 = a salt efficiency of 2000 grain/lb. And you put him into a regeneration based on 30,000, so the gallons would be 30000/120= 4680 per day so 30000-4680=25320 after the 24 hour reserve is taken out (you may do the 24 hr reserve differently) and 25320/4680 = 5.4, or a regeneration every 5 days @ 15 Lbs.

    Mine he gets a regeneration on average every 8 days with 12 lbs. and there are 46 8 day periods in a year, and 365/5 days = 73 5 day periods your way. So 73-46 = 27 more regenerations a year your way times 15 lbs = 405 lbs more salt/yr, your way; plus any cost for the extra water use if he is on city water, and maybe higher sewage rates if charged based on his water bill.

    With mine he uses a resin cleaner about once every 4 to 6 weeks that costs about $15.yr. 405 lbs/40 lb bags = 10 extra bags at say $5 each equals $50 more/yr - my $15 = $35/yr more your way. And he'll probably have to use a resin cleaner anyway.
  16. tnewman10

    tnewman10 New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Ohio
    ONE FINAL QUESTION, before yall come to FIST-A-CUFFS.. LOL.... What are the differences in the aqua systems softeners I first mentioned compared to all the other softeners? Just marketing?
  17. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes, it's just marketing and giving the opportunity for the customer to take the valve off the tank and in to the dealer for service.

    The truth is that anyone with the desire and a pair of adjustable pliers can totally replace all 5 replaceable parts on a Clack WS-1 control valve and have their water back on in under 30 minutes. It was designed to be the fastest and easiest to repair, and it is.

    I have sold over 1300 in six yrs next month and have had only 28 warranty problems.
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Actually it was YOU that said
    Originally Posted by george57 [​IMG]
    I didn't plan on getting more than 30k out of it.
    *************

    Now I know you have to set the salt dose at 15lbs to regenerate 30K in YOUR one cuft volume of regular mesh resin (32K) softener. I also know that YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT.

    So I didn't put words in your mouth as you're now whining about, again.

    I commented on exactly what YOU said. So live with it as you make your customer live with very poor salt efficiency in your small'n most likely undersized softeners.

    Or, learn how to do this stuff right instead of mistakenly thinking you're right and I'm wrong.

    BTW, who's right is easily proven by reading any spec sheet for the resin you sell.
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That's OK with me. Then you will be regenerating much more frequently than 30K and 15 lbs would require.

    So tell us what you would use as the salt dose lbs and the K of capacity, and how frequently it would regenerate.
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I care because in most cases you give incorrect information, as in this thread when your first reply says;

    12-07-2009, 08:49 PM george57 [​IMG] DIY Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: tx Posts: 19 [​IMG]

    You may want to look into non electronic models. Some softeners with electronics tends to have problems that only a service tech can fix. If you want to do it yourself, look into the mechnical metered unit.
    .**********

    The incorrect (dishonest?) part there is the "... electronics... problems only a service tech can fix". Name me one brand or model of control valve that ONLY a service guy can fix; or that a DIYer can't fix.

    And then you go on from there proposing he only needs a 1.0 cuft (32K) when you have no idea of how many bathrooms or the type of fixtures are in them. So you had no idea what his peak demand flow rate is because you don't think you need to size for the peak demand gpm, and you're wrong again.

    As to you being a threat to me, I don't think so because I know the pie is large enough for all of us and if you build enough trust and respect to outsell me, good for you but IMO, you have a ways to go.
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