Need a Water Softner! Which One?

[Gary Slusser]

I have had well over 10 service calls on Sears, Eco, Autotrol and even Fleck because the customer got into the computer. It is my opinon about the computers and I believe I have the right to voice my opinon without you saying negitive things about it. Remember, you can't even agree to disagree.

Yes people screw up the programming of their control valve, regardless if it is electronic or mechanical metered or a time clock day timer. That's why I've always given my customers the programming instructions and their data. And I did that when I was a local dealer.

But that's a bit different than saying "Some softeners with electronics tends to have problems that only a service tech can fix."

I don't see that statement as an opinon, but I do agree to disagree with you.

 

[tnewman10]

Hi Gary, I talked with you on the phone today and decided to go with the Clack, I just placed my order online via your site... Thanks for the help, Ted... I will tell everyone how great the softener is after I get her hooked up.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[NHmaster]

Super. Glad you were able to come to a solution after having to endure all the controversy. Thanks for letting us know how things work out.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Hi Gary, I talked with you on the phone today and decided to go with the Clack, I just placed my order online via your site... Thanks for the help, Ted... I will tell everyone how great the softener is after I get her hooked up.

Thank you. It's been ordered and it should ship today and you should get it tomorrow.

 

[ibjamin]

OK, I need a new water softener also. The Sears one I've had for 15 years is about done with. I've had to fix it too often and want something better.

We're on a Municipal well/city water. 17 gpg hardness, 0.2ppm iron, 0 mang, 0.5ppm fluoride (natural), Chlorine - trace to .02ppm. Using water bills for the last 2 years it appears we average about 160 gallons a day (when not using irrigation). 2 adults in home. SFR is fairly high. 3 bedroom, 2 bath but may do the basement which would add 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

1" pipe from street, through a 3/4" meter (have a underground sprinkler system, not softened). 1" copper pipe to the softener. Would like to run 1" through the softener so it would never be a flow limiter.

Used Gary's sizing calculators and it comes up with 22.8K size with 1.5 cu ft resin. I'm just confused about the results. 1.5 cu ft resin is associated with a 48k size softner. Why so big? Other sites that have tables/calculators say to use around a 24K softener.

I don't mind getting a bigger softener (in case I add more baths) but won't it not regenerate for a very long time? Like 2 weeks?

Thanks,

George

 

[Akpsdvan]

OK, I need a new water softener also. The Sears one I've had for 15 years is about done with. I've had to fix it too often and want something better.

We're on a Municipal well/city water. 17 gpg hardness, 0.2ppm iron, 0 mang, 0.5ppm fluoride (natural), Chlorine - trace to .02ppm. Using water bills for the last 2 years it appears we average about 160 gallons a day (when not using irrigation). 2 adults in home. SFR is fairly high. 3 bedroom, 2 bath but may do the basement which would add 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

1" pipe from street, through a 3/4" meter (have a underground sprinkler system, not softened). 1" copper pipe to the softener. Would like to run 1" through the softener so it would never be a flow limiter.

Used Gary's sizing calculators and it comes up with 22.8K size with 1.5 cu ft resin. I'm just confused about the results. 1.5 cu ft resin is associated with a 48k size softner. Why so big? Other sites that have tables/calculators say to use around a 24K softener.

I don't mind getting a bigger softener (in case I add more baths) but won't it not regenerate for a very long time? Like 2 weeks?

Thanks,

George

Big reason for the 1.5 is the Flow rate. When you start adding up the fixture count in your home at what could be 4 bath + kitchen + laundry . So while the 1.0 cubic had the cap to do the job it falls short on flow rate.


Flow rate is so often over looked when a system of any kind goes in.
Not only the needed flow rate in the house, but the flow rate from either the private well or city.
To often I have seen a system that needs 10gpm for backwash and the well at best is doing 5gpm.. some thing is not going to work very well.

 

[Gary Slusser]

OK, I need a new water softener also.

We're on a Municipal well/city water. 17 gpg hardness, 0.2ppm iron, 0 mang, 0.5ppm fluoride (natural), Chlorine - trace to .02ppm. Using water bills for the last 2 years it appears we average about 160 gallons a day (when not using irrigation). 2 adults in home. SFR is fairly high. 3 bedroom, 2 bath but may do the basement which would add 2 bedrooms and 2 baths.

Used Gary's sizing calculators and it comes up with 22.8K size with 1.5 cu ft resin. I'm just confused about the results. 1.5 cu ft resin is associated with a 48k size softner. Why so big? Other sites that have tables/calculators say to use around a 24K softener.

I don't mind getting a bigger softener (in case I add more baths) but won't it not regenerate for a very long time? Like 2 weeks?

You need to go back to those pages and study more... especially the sizing page.

The constant SFR gpm of a softener is dictated by the volume of resin. That gpm has to be higher than your peak demand gpm or the softener can not remove all the hardness in the water. You do not yet know what your peak demand is. The SFR of a 1.5 cuft softener is 12 gpm. A "24K" is a 3/4 cuft and has a constant SFR of 6.75 gpm. The type of fixtures in the bathrooms usually dictate the peak demand.

To get 24K out of 3/4 cuft of resin, you need to set the salt dose at the max of 15 lbs/cuft (11.25lbs). The need for 22.8K and using a 1.0 cuft requires roughly 8.7 lbs, in a 1.5 cuft, 6.8lbs.. And the 22.8 gets you a regeneration on average once every 8 days based on 1341 gallons on the meter. A 3/4 cuft doesn't come close in salt or water efficiency and is way undersized for 2 or 4 bathrooms.

For more on this you'd have to call me.

 

[Skip Wolverton]

Call me old school, but I have seen a 1 cu ft unit do just fine in your case. I've been servicing and installing units for around 20 years and have not seen hardness bleed through like what is talked about here. And I have let it be known that I prefer a Fleck valve over any other out there. I just don't like electronics on water softeners. I have seen too many problems with them. I have own one and still don't like them.

 

[NHmaster]

I come up with 48,000 also.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Call me old school, but I have seen a 1 cu ft unit do just fine in your case. I've been servicing and installing units for around 20 years and have not seen hardness bleed through like what is talked about here. And I have let it be known that I prefer a Fleck valve over any other out there. I just don't like electronics on water softeners. I have seen too many problems with them. I have own one and still don't like them.

What salt dose would you use for a 1 cuft?

How frequently would your 1 cuft regenerate?

I used to feel the same about electronic control valves but changed from the Fleck 5600 mechanical metered to the Clack WS-1 CS electronic and have had fewer than a dozen electronic type problems in over 1300 sales over 6 yrs next month.

 

[Akpsdvan]

Years ago I came up with a spread sheet with the 1.0, 1.5, and 1.8 cubic foot units with the different salt levels.

I use a Turbulator in the units that I do, so that has less head room or less water for the down flow brine to go through.

It was a bit of an Eye opener to see that even with changes to the iron, hardness and possible Mn... that the 1.5 more times than not was better on salt.

Strange as it might sound the 1.8 was almost a copy of the 1.0 cubic unit.

I have been using the Fleck 2510 for 12 years, most of the time the 3200 timer on it , either day or meter... bulet prof... The early SE control was not that good , but it has gotten better over the years.

One thing that I like about the SE or the new SXT is that it can do either gallons or days.

Yes I do know that the WS-1 with its Elec control can do the same thing.

The main reason for me staying with the Fleck line is the ease of cleaning the valve because of the Iron that I have to deal with... Iron build up is easier to clean than other valves that I have had to work on over the years.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Years ago I came up with a spread sheet with the 1.0, 1.5, and 1.8 cubic foot units with the different salt levels.

I use a Turbulator in the units that I do, so that has less head room or less water for the down flow brine to go through.

It was a bit of an Eye opener to see that even with changes to the iron, hardness and possible Mn... that the 1.5 more times than not was better on salt.

The main reason for me staying with the Fleck line is the ease of cleaning the valve because of the Iron that I have to deal with... Iron build up is easier to clean than other valves that I have had to work on over the years.

Yes, more resin at the same lbs of salt as in a smaller softener, gets you higher available capacity, or, keep the same capacity as the smaller softener and reduce the salt lbs and you increase the salt efficiency. I don't think biermech/Skip Wolverton gets that but any resin speck sheet shows it.

How do you get more "headroom" (freeboard) with a Turbulator dist tube when you have the same volume of resin in the tank, especially when you can't use a gravel underbed? No gravel means more freeboard (distance from the top of the resin to the top of the tank).

How is the 2510 easier to clean iron out of than other control valves?

All the seals and spacers in a Clack come out as one piece in 2 seconds and the 2510 has 5-6 seals and 4-5 spacers that all come out and go in individually. Also, Fleck control valves have a separate brine valve, Clack got rid of the separate brine valve and its gearing and has a small brine piston on the far end of the main piston and its seals and spacers come out/go in with the main piston's seals and spacers stack. I tell my customers how to prevent iron/rust buildup.

 

[Akpsdvan]

Yes, more resin at the same lbs of salt as in a smaller softener, gets you higher available capacity, or, keep the same capacity as the smaller softener and reduce the salt lbs and you increase the salt efficiency. I don't think biermech/Skip Wolverton gets that but any resin speck sheet shows it.

How do you get more "headroom" (freeboard) with a Turbulator dist tube when you have the same volume of resin in the tank, especially when you can't use a gravel underbed? No gravel means more freeboard (distance from the top of the resin to the top of the tank).

How is the 2510 easier to clean iron out of than other control valves?

All the seals and spacers in a Clack come out as one piece in 2 seconds and the 2510 has 5-6 seals and 4-5 spacers that all come out and go in individually. Also, Fleck control valves have a separate brine valve, Clack got rid of the separate brine valve and its gearing and has a small brine piston on the far end of the main piston and its seals and spacers come out/go in with the main piston's seals and spacers stack. I tell my customers how to prevent iron/rust buildup.

On the freeboard, with a normal set up a 8x44 tank would have .6 cubic feet of resin and gravel bed giving 17" freeboard and a back wash of 3gpm(no upper basket)
With the turbo the same tank can take 1.0 cubic feet no gravel and lower the freeboard to 10" and backwash rate down to 2gpm.

Seals and spacers as one unit... Culligan? oh that is a pain if iron builds up ...

spacers breaking... and then one has to replace the hole cage..

Yes there are 5 spacers to remove, but if one holds onto used ones, if one gets broke because of iron build up and not coming out easy but in parts, one does not need a full seal/spacer kit, just the one.

Separate brine valve can at times be a pain I will grant you that.

Most of the time I will not use the 5600, while it is a great valve, the older timer control has no way of changing any of the time settings, the 2510,2750,2850 etc... all use the same 3200 assembly for the timer or the same SE or now SXT control..
With the cold water that I have here along with iron levels that can be 50ppm having the ability to change pins for BW/BR/RR/BF often times is the difference between a unit working right or wrong.

 

[ibjamin]

I'm confused about salt dose/effiency. How does that vary? I thought a gallon of water "melts" 3lbs salt. So when you say vary the salt dose, are you referring to how much water goes into the brine tank?

So why does a smaller amount of resin need more water (brine) to regenerate it?

George

 

[Akpsdvan]

I'm confused about salt dose/effiency. How does that vary? I thought a gallon of water "melts" 3lbs salt. So when you say vary the salt dose, are you referring to how much water goes into the brine tank?

So why does a smaller amount of resin need more water (brine) to regenerate it?

George

1 gallon=3lbs salt, after about 2-3 hours.

When we are talking about efficiency of the Resin is this.
Each Maker of Resin as a chart... x amount of resin with x salt yields a capacity.
There is also a curve , kinda like the bell curve that the teacher might have used in school.
There is a point on that curve that one gets the best bang for the buck if you will..
Most of the time it is 6lbs per cube, now while one can push 12lbs per cube the gain in capacity at the upper end is not that much, so why push that extra salt when the gain in capacity is only a 1000 or so... That for me is why I figure my units at the most efficient point on the curve.
There are times that I will push the upper end, but that is only for a few, when they need 0ppm hardness from start to finish, and the price of salt is not a factor in operation of the unit...

Clear as Mud?

 

[Bob999]

This link is for technical data for SST-60 resin. Page 4 of the paper includes the salt rate/capacity curves for SST-60 resin and for standard resin.

www.purolite.com/customized/uploads/pdfs/SST60.pdf

 

[Gary Slusser]

I'm confused about salt dose/effiency. How does that vary? I thought a gallon of water "melts" 3lbs salt. So when you say vary the salt dose, are you referring to how much water goes into the brine tank?

So why does a smaller amount of resin need more water (brine) to regenerate it?

Every softener in the world has an adjustable K of capacity because they all have a means to set a salt dose in lbs (or the volume of water to dissolve 3lbs/gal) used per regeneration.

So a given number of lbs regenerates X K of capacity; I. E. 15 lbs regenerates the max of 30K/cuft of regular mesh resin. Nine lbs 24K, 6 lbs 20K etc..

If you want to know salt efficiency you divide the K of capacity by the lbs used per regeneration and to compare one softener to another, you need to know how many regenerations in a given period of time, like a week.

A smaller softener and a larger one can both use the same amount of water to regenerate with or, either can use more or less than the other. It depends on how many minutes each cycle position runs for and what gpm the drain line flow control (DLFC) is used which depends on what type and volume of resin is used, the water quality being treated, the salt dose water for the salt dose setting and, if softened water is used for the regeneration as in a twin tank type softener.

 

[NHmaster]

Nice post Gary, good explanation.

 

[ibjamin]

OK, I think I get it. Just throwing numbers out here. 1 cu ft of resin can hold 30K max. 10lbs of salt will get back 20K but to get the next 10K you have to use 15lbs. So you have to use more salt to get the entire 30K.

Or you can use a larger softner with more resin. So I would use roughly 24K of the 48K capacity of 1.5cu ft resin in 8 days. But when I regenerate, I only have to regenerate the 24K that was used and that puts me on the steep side of the salt efficientcy curve. So I use less salt, have higher SFR, and the extra capacity I might need in the future.

Sounds good. Thanks!

George

 

[Skip Wolverton]

The formula I learned back in 1990 is 1 cubic foot of resin =
30,000 grains @ 15 lbs salt
20,000 grains @ 8 lbs salt (it is actually 6 lbs but you have to deduct a reserve so the 8 lbs salt has the reserve buildt in)

A 1 cf softener:

20k/17 gpg hardness = 1176 gal between regen
1176/2 people/75 gpd useage =7.8 days between regen
30 days in a month/7.8 = 3.8 regens per month
3.8 * 8 lbs salt per regen =30.76 lbs per month

A 1.5 cf softener:

30k/17 gpg hardness = 1764 gal between regen
1764/2 people/75 gpd useage =11.76 days between regen
30 days in a month/11.76 = 2.5 regens per month
2.5 * 12 lbs salt per regen =30 lbs per month

With iron in the water, the longer run between regens, the higher chance all the iron will not be rinsed off the resin. That means with a bigger unit, you may have to back down on the gallon count.