My New Toto Drale II C454CEFG just clogged up

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by DanMcD, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    Dayton, OH
    OK folks it clogged up and I had a heck of a time getting it unclogged since I had only a round plunger to use.

    As I worked it, I could see small pieces of toilet paper floating around in the bowl.

    Now here is the deal.....6 hour ago I decided to see if I could clog the bowl on purpose and so I put six clumps of toilet paper in the bowl. But is all flushed right down, so I figured all is well. I had not flushed it again since that time until….just now (6 hours later) when I tried to flush it and the bowl kept filling up with water. So what is going on? Could it be that the toilet paper flushed OK the 1st time but did not all dissolve? I do use some of the worst toilet paper (Charmin)…but, like I said it flushed down the 1st time.

    With my tank leaking as well, I'm getting a little frustrated!
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2013
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    I could have evacuated the bowl but not gone all the way down the bend and into the drain line. Sometimes, if it just barely swallows it out of the bowl, it doesn't mean that it's gone all the way down. So...you may want to make sure it wasn't clogged a little further down by giving it a second flush. As a user of that brand, I now have a good sense of when, although the bowl looks clear, a second flush might be helpful. Then I hear a giant glug, glug, glug from the shower as the mass of stuff drops two stories into the basement and I know that the second flush was worthwhile. Doesn't happen often, but it is necessary once in a while.

    Seriously -- you intentionally tried to clog it, failed, and then are surprised that there might be some residual there on the next flush? That Charmin is NEVER going to dissolve (at least not this year), unlike other toilet paper, so, unlike other toilet paper, you can't just wait for it to "clear itself". That's not unusual for other paper, but it won't work with the Charmin.
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    FIrst, you need a plunger with a (often) pull-out snout. THen, most people don't really know how to plunge a toilet. The real action happens when you pull UP on the plunger, not push down on it! Think of it, if it got wedged in the trap, is it going to get better by forcing it down and packing it tighter, or using the suction to pull it back out a bit so it can rearrange itself, then go down? SO, a few up and down motions to rock things and loosen it up, then when fully down, a rapid pull up is the magic when plunging ANY toilet. Your first test may have packed a big wad part way down the drain.

    Any toilet can be plugged, but Totos are better than most. Don't abuse it, and it should work.

    Unless the tank is cracked, it isn't rocket science to get it leak free. Terry linked to the recommended sequence. While the nut holding the flapper seat in place is normally tight from the factory, it may need a slight tightening. You'd have to try to determine where it is leaking from - around one of the bolt holes or the flapper seat. Once all of those are properly torqued down, it will not leak.
  4. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    Dayton, OH
    Thansk. I'm pretty sure you are right.....it barely swallowed it out of the bowl,but clogged a little further down. A second flush right away would most likely have solved the problem.
  5. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    Thanks. I plan to buy one of those plungers with a pull-out snout.
  6. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Hopefully you won't need that plunger much. Dan, we want you to love your Drake II the way we love our various Totos, so we're going to stick with you until you get all the kinks worked out and start loving it too...
  7. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    Thanks. Bye the way, what is the replacement for this Drake II. I thought I read it was a Korky flapper and that they make a red one that flushes 1.3 gal and a blue one that flushes 1.6 gal...but I do not know if that is true. My flapper is grey.
  8. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    [To summarize the lengthy discussion below, the grey flapper is the new PVC version of the pink-with-float Chlorazone flapper that used to ship with your toilet. If it were I, when it comes time to replace it, I would just get the Korky 3" large adjustable flapper, Model 3060 (and whatever lettered suffix), set it and drop it in. It will work perfectly.]

    The Korky red "Fits Toto" flapper (Model 2021) is the right one for the 1.6 gallon Gmax toilets. The Blue "Fits Toto" flapper was also meant to flush 1.6, but it is designed to flush 1.6 with the old Power Gravity flush, which doesn't fill the tank as high as the GMax flush does, so the blue one in effect drains the tank if you drop it on a GMax or EMax flush toilet, making it closer to a 3-gallon-per-flush monster. The extra water doesn't add much to the flushing ability of the thing, so the blue one is obsolete for newer toilets, but probably sells OK still because it's right about the time where a lot of those older Power Gravity toilets are going to be needing a new flapper.

    The Red "Fits Toto" flapper (Model 2021) is the equivalent of the Toto THU175S flapper. (Actually, it's the exact same flapper as the one made by Korky for Toto and just put in different packaging.) So any toilet that takes the THU175S will be very content with that flapper -- and a lot of Totos do. Toto has now come out with a new flapper made from PVC instead of the Korky Chlorazone material used in the THU175S (and Korky 2021). That is the THU331S, and it's pink PVC. My two Original Drakes, and my Carlyle II, all are designed to take the THU175S, so I will be replacing their flappers, when necessary, with the Korky 2021; although the THU331S is the latest, I'm quite content with the Korky 2021 flapper (which is widely-available and half-the-price), and so will continue to use it.

    Your Drake II used to ship with the THU253S (pink with float) flapper, for which the equivalent PVC flapper is the THU347S -- the grey PVC flapper -- which is now what is being shipped from the factory in the toilet. There is no direct equivalent Korky part. However, Korky makes a "universal"-ish 3" Adjustable Flapper, where you just slide a little plastic sleeve around the outside to increase or decrease the buoyancy of the flapper and thus the amount of water that leaves the bowl. Many smart plumbers just carry that part on their truck, so that one flapper will work perfectly on basically every Toto gravity toilet with a 3" flappered flush valve. Terry is one of them, if I read one of his earlier posts correctly: one Korky flapper and one Korky fill valve basically let him fix almost every Toto. That flapper is Korky 3060BP (you can ignore the letters -- its 3060 and some suffix at almost any hardware store, the suffix denotes the packaging format: blister pack, etc.). http://korky.com/Flapper3060BP.html It's what I would drop on a Drake II if I owned one. [For purposes of precision, certain toilets, like the floor-mounted Aquia dual-flush, Maris double-cyclone dual-flush, and "1G" toilets do not use a flapper, and thus can't be fixed with the 3060BP.]

    There is a nice little illustrated chart from Western Sales that lays all this out. Of course, being a Toto piece, it has typos. I don't know why Toto's printed materials always have typos, but they do. In your case, your tank is ST454E. The Toto piece has no reference to that tank number, but it does refer to "ST545E", which doesn't exist. (One other clue is that they refer in that piece to ST545E(R), meaning that it applies also to the right-hand trip lever version of that tank, and only a few Totos can be special-ordered with a right-hand trip lever and the Drake II is one of them, so clearly they just typed 545 when they meant 454...) Soooo...if you peruse the flapper chart that I give the link to below, the tank for your toilet is incorrectly listed as ST545 instead of ST454. Here's the link -- it's actually kind of interesting (and it has PHOTOS!!!), but maybe just to a limited audience. ;) http://western-sales.com/mpu/jun12mpu/TOTO Flapper Conversion Table.pdf
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  9. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    121
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    wjcandee,

    This is a great summary. Thanks much for all your help.

    I'm curious about two points you made:

    1) On your comment "The Blue "Fits Toto" flapper was also meant to flush 1.6,.....making it closer to a 3-gallon-per-flush monster. The extra water doesn't add much to the flushing ability of the thing". Why is this true? While it would not save any water, would not 3 gal/per flush help flush my Charmin toilet paper down better than the 1.3 gal per flush?

    2) If I use the Korky 3" large adjustable flapper (Model 3060), can it be adjusted to flush more water than 1.3 gal? How much more?

    Dan

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  10. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    121
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    wjcandee,

    I thougth of another question that you might know the asnwer. How much water does my Drake II hold total, if I adjust the fill valve so water is right up to the overflow tube? Is it 3 gallons? If so, that would mean the tank keeps 1.7 gal after I flush its normal 1.3 gal.
  11. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    (1) If it's gonna clog, it's not gonna clog for a lack of water. It's gonna clog because the stuff doesn't fit through the trapway. My hideous Kohler Ingenium flush could drain the entire tank and still not get down a couple of sheets of paper -- the water wasn't the issue, the trapway design was. Which is why I "corrected" it with a sledgehammer.

    (2) Yes. A lot. It won't help. Just be judicious about the amount of Charmin you dump in the bowl per flush. If you need to wipe with more than the thing will handle, do it in two groups. Much more efficient to do that on an occasional basis than have the thing spend three gallons to dispose of 4 ounces of urine.

    (3) Don't adjust it so it's to the top of the overflow riser because someday this will cause a runaway toilet. The proper setting is 1/2" below the top of the overflow riser. I haven't actually measured the tank contents, but you could do so. Here's how: Turn off the water. Flush the thing and hold the flapper open until whatever will drain like that will drain (there will be some residual; ignore it). Go get an empty gallon jug. Fill it. Pour it in the tank. Count the number of containers it takes. Do that in the original Drake and you will find that the tank holds a little more than 2 gallons to 1/2" below the top of the overflow tube. Remember that that toilet has a 40% refill ratio (i.e. 40% of the water coming from the wall goes to refill). So, to put 2 gallons in the tank, you need to bring more from the wall because much will go into the bowl (and, when you fill the whole tank rather than the designated portion, much of that refill water will run down the drain uselessly). Doing the math -- simple algebra .6X=2 gallons 2/.6=3.33333=X So the toilet devotes 1.33 gallons to refill in that scenario, which is a lot more than it needs. So I had it about right -- the total water volume used in the flush when you drain the tank (on an Original Drake) is 2 gallons of tank water and 1.33 gallons of refill water, for a total of about 3-1/3 gallons, or a little more than double the 1.6gpf that is used without it. Properly-configured, the GMax flush is going to use .64 gallons of water to refill the bowl, and .96 gallons of water from the tank for the flush.

    The Drake II has an expected water height of 160 millimeters and a refill ratio of 28% (the specs on the old TSU38A fill valve), so it's pretty apparent on the face of it that it expects to use 1 gallon of water from the tank to do the flush, and .28 gallons of refill water to fill the bowl -- totalling 1.28gpf, the rating of the toilet.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  12. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

    Messages:
    121
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    Thanslk for all the good info.

    I installed the Korky 3" large adjustable flapper, Model 3060. But, no matter what setting, it does not empty the tank dry. Only holding the handle down does that.

    I emptied and filled up the tank while there wa still water in the bowl. I got 8 quarts exactly to the top of the overflow tube.
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    They also count "bowl" refill in the specs.

    The tank never needs to empty on toilets built since 1992.
    Of toilets needed to, because the trapways were of such poor design. That's why "old" toilets needed a plunger in every bathroom.

    Toilet Paper Poll
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  14. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Thanks for the stats!! So it's probably like 1.75 gals to 1/2" below the top of the overflow tube. Good to know!! This means that it normally leaves a little more than 3 quarts in the tank when the specified 1 gallon departs the tank upon flushing. Unless you use that adjustable flapper for more water. ;)

    Terry correctly points out that bowl refill is measured in the stats. On the Drake II, it's easy, because the Drake II fill valve is set at the factory to a 28% refill ratio. One gallon of water from the tank plus 28 percent of that (.28 gallon) for bowl refill yields a 1.28 gallon flush!
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  15. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    121
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    Thanks.

    I wrote to Toto on the Drake II and they said "When holding down the handle, you will be flushing roughly 3 gallons of water."
  16. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    121
    Location:
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    wjcandee,

    Do you know, if I use the "blue" Korky 2022BP Power Gravity Flapper, will it stay open long enough to completely empty the Drake II tank? The Korky 3" large adjustable flapper, Model 3060 did not empty the tank dry.

    I know this is not in the spirit of saving water, but since I use a lot of Charmin I would like to get a 3 gal flush.
  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    So you fell for the hyperbole that Toto toilets were the epitome of flushing. I have never bought in to it and therefore have only installed a very few Totos and they were purchased by the customer and I installed them. I use several other brands and the customers have never called and said they "clog up all the time".
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    My parents grew up in the depression, and were rationed 4-sheets of TP per event...it carried over. On occasion, I do use more if necessary especially if it is really thin stuff. I can rationally see no reason to use yards of the stuff. If you really are adverse to this, get a bidet seat. I always wash my hands when I'm done anyways. If you are sane about TP use, it is nearly impossible to clog a Toto toilet unless you produce oversized, long, hard stools. Then, few toilets will work. Charmin is probably one of the worst things for a septic tank, and isn't very good for a municipal sewer, either. Just ask a guy who empties them.
  19. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes...........If you try to plug a toilet, you can.
    I've heard of customers doing that. They get a new bowl and see if they can jam it up as soon as they can.
    Charmin has a lot of cotton content. It doesn't break down. So you wind up with masses of cotton in the pipes.

    hj,
    I've tried to send you business when I get calls and emails from the Scottsdale and Phoenix area. They have been looking to "buy" them from somebody. I guess you haven't been interested in selling them.

    I've sold thousands of toilets in the last ten years. And it's rare to hear of a clog. I have one customer that tries to flush toothbrushes down. That's not a good idea. Nobody ever said a toilet was a good place for a toothbrush or a cell phone.

    To the original poster.
    If you use a toilet for it's intended purpose, it's going to work fine.
    If you going to test it for plugging by putting down insane amounts of paper, then you will do that fine too.
    Do you also test the air bags in your car by bumping into other cars to see if those work?

    The flapper that came with the toilet is fine. It's 800 grams on the MaP testing.
    Any toilet that gets 500 grams is awesome.

    The toilets that hj has in his own home; Eljer one-piece Canterbury, MaP 150 grams. The church I went to in Monroe had those too. They also had a sign over all the doors telling people to flush twice. Once before the paper, and again after the paper.
    In my Bellevue church, we took out the constantly plugging American Standard 5.0 gallon Cadet toilets and replaced with 1.6 gallon TOTO toilets. They no longer have toilets that plug. (Unless you get some goof that comes in and tries to plug them on purpose :( ) That guy needs a new hobby.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  20. DanMcD

    DanMcD New Member

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    Location:
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    OK, I'm gulity of being a goof who tried to plug the Toto on purpose. I was just conducting a test as I know some times I use a lot of Charmin which is my preferred toilet paper beacause it does not fall apart in use.

    In any case, thanks everyone for all the help.

    Bye the way, my recent tests show that, if you use the Korky 3" large adjustable flapper (model 3060)...it dumps another 2 quarts of water from the tank. So that is about a 1.5 gal flush from the tank.
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