Main h/w tank is 65 feet away...i as

Discussion in 'Tankless Water Heater Forum' started by bob s, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    I was working on this a long time ago; but life happened and it had to be put on the back burner.My furthest cold outlet is in the kitchen . The one she uses the most.I want quicker hot water @that faucet, we are wasting to much well water.Can i get a plumber ..here to make me a diagram----- of what i can install in this delema.,Using my present w/h in the mix,to get this done right. I was a plumber at one time,am retired and time dims ones memory.I can do whatever a good diagram install calls for.. . I need it [diagram] placed on this thread!----- please make it inexpensive to a point. And her and I are the only ones here anymore.If you want a fee i could do that .
    please --every time i run this faucet it takes almost a gallon before it i gets warm. When we bought the house there was a huge non-working heater midway, to the kitchen faucet,in the basement. It was cut up and taken out .and never replaced.....f.y.i. Thank you for taking the time to help me on this bob s
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  2. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    btt btt btt
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    15,122
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    It sounds like a recirc pump would help out.
    I like to run a 1/2" line back to the water heater, with an aquastat that cuts off the pump when the return is warmed.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    Any recirc system will work, a dedicated return line is the best. YOu can use the cold water line as a return, but then that leaves you with at least warm water in the cold line. The simplest one to install (by no means the least expensive) that I've seen is from RedyTemp...should take you all of about 10-minutes IF you have a place to plug it in under the sink.

    If you have the height, and can run a return line properly, gravity can do it for no power consumption. But, your slope must be proper and steep enough, and that may not be possible over 65'. The only other way is a pump, OR, to put a small WH under the counter, fed by the hot line. It will provide hot if sized properly until the hot arrives from the main tank.
  5. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    This last lines of this paragraph here is the way i was thinking, Saw a titan tankless in a garage today .Its 110volt he says it works good but hardly anyone uses it.It was $175.00 .thanks all small tank under the floor /k sink, will do it 10 gallon or so??what do you think/? bob s




    May i ask; I want a 4 gallon heater hooked up in series with my present house heater. What make would be the suggestion you would share with me what to get?? pm is ok---- if it is no-no on this forum thanks soon i want to get started bob s
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  6. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    btt btt/////////// redi temp to much money for me [retired]
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    I said it was the easiest to install, not that it is the only one out there! If you were planning on paying someone to install a less expensive one, verses installing that one yourself, they'd be about even, or the RedyTemp would likely be less. But if you can do it yourself (sounds like you can), there are a bunch of packaged recirculation systems out there. You can make up your own as well - you'll need either a brass or SS pump (no iron used for hydronic heating), a check valve, and likely a couple of valves to help balance the flow. THen, you'd probably want an aquastat and a control for the pump. Some use a thermostatic cross-over to throttle the flow, but leave the pump running all the time. Some, turn the pump off once it senses hot at the monitoring point.
  8. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich


    Sorry Jad, i must have thrown you off here somewhere, I think. I ask "which"small p.o.u, heater- is going to be good for her and i. I asked which one would be the best choice in a [2 to 4 gallon] tank--[brand]. This will be in series ,and will be a simpler "instant hot water fix." I am retired, And hard work doesn't do well with my health anymore. All those years of plumbing have taken their toll,on me.---------Thanks Jad let me know please. bob s
    i sent a pm to terry ,but i see he doesn't "directly"answer all the emails that he receives.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  9. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    Where would i find A schematic showing this hook up? Terry i'm not getting a hold of your idea.
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    You'd need to install a T in the hot water line near the furthest fixture...a check valve to prevent water from feeding the hot line from that new path as well as the hot line, and run a new line back to the drain of the WH. You'd probably just take the old drain valve out, screw in a nipple with a T - go to the drain valve, and on the t, you'd use a SS or bronze circulator (doesn't need to be big). To control the circulator, (you could just let it run) you could use a HVAC control box which will have a relay to power the circulator, and a couple of thermostat leads, powered by a 24vac transformer. On the T leads, you'd hook up an aquastat with an adjustable high/low limit. Depending on the temp setting of your WH, you'd set the high end near that, and the low maybe 10-15 degrees lower. The aquastat would turn on the circulator until the water at the sensor was the high limit then turn off. It would stay off until it got to the low limit. You could power the whole relay control box with a timer so it only worked while you were usually up. Or, you could wire in a time-delay relay, and pushbuttons near the sink(s) - pushing it would turn the pump on for whatever the delay was set for, then turn off. You'd have to wait for the water to get warm, but you wouldn't be throwing it down the drain, and do without the automatic cycling and the aquastat.

    On the return line, you'd also probably install a valve to throttle it down to keep the velocity down, limiting erosion and noise.

    The packaged units will have a cross-over, some temperature control, check valve, and pump included. You can buy pumps with built-in check valves if you don't want a separate one, and you may want to monitor the temp at the point of use rather than back at the pump (which is often in the utility room near the WH, but it doesn't have to be). If you're going to run it that far away from the pump, make sure you use a big enough wire to limit the drop - the aquastat only needs to power the relay coil, but still, 65' is a ways if you use a small gauge wire. You'd also want to insulate all of the hot water pipes you can easily get to. With 65' each way, you may never get the water very hot at the end of the return line unless you insulate the lines well, so monitoring it at the point of use has advantages.
  11. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    You lost me! sorryJad


    This is what i am thinking .I tap into the long hot line from the w/heater, with a - t-so i have flow to the existing k sink faucet [hot] only. Then once this new small 2 gallon heater is installed, the water coming from the long distance w'heater supply, will flow thru the t to the heater refilling it with hot water therefore giving me hot water quickly at the faucet and the dishwasher .@at same time. This will keep the energy used down by the new heater abit.plus A great flow thru to the faucet from the small heater. Hot water will be at the small heater,keeping it from running so much BOB S
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    Neither...my last description was how to run a self-made recirculation loop.

    If you just want a small heater, cut the hot line near the sink, run the hot from the WH into the cold side of the new, small WH, and run the hot lead back to the faucet. If you use a T there, it will take the path of least resistance, and most of that would be from the main WH, not through the tank, so it would be mostly useless. As long as the small WH was big enough for most of your uses, it would be fairly stable, but depending on how long it actually takes to get there from the main tank, you may experience a dip in temp as the cold in the supply line fills up the tank before the hot arrives. The new tank will try to start to reheat that water, but the size of the element isn't all that big.
  13. bob s

    bob s retired forgettful journeyman plumber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    lower mich
    Think it would get hot water for just enough that i don't have to stand And wait for it everytime.?
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,139
    Location:
    New England
    With a small tank there, you'll get whatever temp water you've set that small tank to. But, keep in mind that it is filling with the cooled off water in the pipes, mixing with what's in the small tank. Since the outlet is at the top and the incoming gets added at the bottom, you may never see that cold water, but depending on the size of the tank and how large the line is feeding it, and how much you're using, there could be a fair amount of cold water before the main tank gets hot running through the small one. TO empty a 4-gallon tank with the typical flow-restricted kitchen faucet, assuming all hot, would be slightly over 2-minutes...the internal heating element will not be able to heat that incoming water much at all, so you'll end up with a hot water sandwich if you were using a lot. This is where a recirculation system has advantages...the hot you're getting is from the main tank.

    If you just use a T, and feed both to the sink, you'll likely find that the extra friction or head of the small tank, very little water gets pushed out of it, and you'll be getting water from the main line without the benefit of the new tank.
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