Leak at tank bolts and/or spud gasket, need help!

[GregN31]

Hello,
I bought a Fluidmaster Toilet Tank Flush Valve, bolts, and gasket set because my flush valve was leaking. The stem of the overflow tube was cracked and water was leaking down the drain constantly. You could actually move the stemp back and forth it was so loose.

By the way, this is a house built in 1999 that we bought recently and the toilet says "Crane Plumbing" on it.

So, yesterday I attempted to install the new flush valve thinking it would be very easy as I've done this stuff before. Wrong, very wrong.

It came apart fine. I did notice that the installer (I think the previous homeowner) had used caulk on both sides of the spud/sponge gasket and also had used caulk on the tank bolts (there was caulk in the holes of the tank where the bolts go through. I thought that was a bit odd, I didn't think if you did it right you needed any caulk. I spent a good deal of time cleaning up the old caulk to get smooth surfaces. However, there is some residue left so there are some bumpy spots, which may be problematic.

I tried installing the flush valve per directions. Put it on, put the plastic washer on the bottom, hand tightened it and gave it another turn or two with a big wrench. That seems tight. Then I followed the directions. Rubber washer on both tank bolts, put them through tank holes, then put a brass washer and but underneath and tighten (we haven't put tank on base yet). Then put spud/sponge gasket on plastic stem underneath. Fine, pressed it on no problem. Then I put tank on base, put bolts through holes in base. Then I put another rubber washer, brass washer and hex nut on the tank bolts and hand tightened them pretty tight.

Then I turn on the water. Whether I flush or not, I can see with a flashlight in between the tank and base where the tank bolts come through the tank there is a drip coming out from where the brass washer and nut are (between the tank and the base). This continues and pools of water form on the floor.

I've tried lots of things, I've taken it apart and put it back together several times, and no matter what I do both of the tank bolts won't stop leaking.
Heck, I even tried caulk which I didn't think was a good thing to do (seems like I'm masking the problem) and that didn't seem to help.

So, any hints on how to go about this to get it right?
My main concerns:
1. How tight do you tighten those tank bolts (when you have the tank off the base and your just tightening the bolts to the tank? Once I hand tighten them snug, then how far do you go? I kind of wonder if I'm cranking them too tight? Depending on how I have it, I can have the rubber washers in the tank starting to curl up in the corners, leading me to believe I've gone to tight, so I've tried backing it off, to no avail. Whats the rule of thumb?
2. How tight do you need to turn that plastic washer on the underside of the tank where your tightening down the actual flush valve? I've got it pretty tight, don't think its leaking there.
3. Any reason I should have to caulk between the spud gasket and stem of the flush valve or between spud gasket and the hole on the base of the toilet? By the way, the hole on the base of toilet has old caulk residue. I cleaned as best I can, but still its bumpy from the little left over.
4. When I put the rubber washer on the underside of the toilet base, then brass washer and hex nut how far do you need to crank those. I've gone "very hand tight".

I'm thinking either a. there was some issue before and the reason the last person caulked was to hide it and/or b. I'm doing something wrong, most likely I'm cranking the heck out of those tank bolts when maybe it just needs finesse.

Any guidance here? I've tried lots of things and now I have the toilet tank on the floor and no toilet. If I hook it up, it will work, I'll just have the steady drip drip and pools on the floor on either side of the toilet from around those tank bolts. If it matters, when I took the toilet apart it had a different arrangement, where it only had the rubber washer on the tank bolts in the tank, then the bolts went through the base and on the underside of the base was a washer and but (both brass). That's it. So this fluidmaster has given me some pieces, in between tank and base, but I would think if anything that would help. Should I add an additional rubber washer on the underside of the tank before the brass washer and nut (that will all sit between tank and base).
Caulk anything?

I'm just perplexed and the plumber can't come until Wednesday if I want to throw in the towel.
Thanks,
Greg

 

[Terry Love]

http://www.fluidmaster.com/fill_products_main.html

No caulk or putty ot paste would be used when installing parts in a tank.
A little emory cloth will help to smooth rough porcelain.
You could also look for internal tank cracks.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[GregN31]

Ok, I put the tank on top of my sink so I can play with it, pour buckets of water in the tank and watch for leaks before setting it on the base again.
I'm still trying to get those to stop leaking. I don't see any obvious cracks or leaks anywhere but right where the brass washers meet the underside of the tank. I did notice, what appears to be from the untrained eye, maybe little cracks around the holes where the bolts are supposed to go through. I wonder if one or both have little cracks right there and its letting water penetrate through that way as you hint at? Water seems to be good at finding its way through even the smallest crack.
Also, I do notice some beads of water that form on the underside of the tank where there doesn't appear to be any cracks or holes. I'm thinking that this is maybe just tank sweat because the tank has been sitting without water and the cold water is causing the condensation under the tank when I pour water in it, and its no problem?
I have tried putting a rubber washer under the tank before the brass washer and nut and that seems to have helped, but there still is one drip on each one. I wonder if I either have a cracked tank or if a little caulk as a last ditch around those on the underside of the tank might work?
Now if I can even find a tank...maybe I have to get a whole new toilet, I'm hoping to avoid it but I may have no choice.
Greg

http://www.fluidmaster.com/fill_products_main.html

No caulk or putty would be used when installing parts in a tank.
A little emory cloth will help to smooth rough porcelain.
You could also look for internal tank cracks.

 

[Plumber1]

This works for me. A little sticky stuff like teflon paste on the bottom of the beveled washer before you put the flush valve back in the tank. Yes you can tighten down on that 2" plastic lock nut quite a bit.
If there is room between the bottom of the tank and the top of the bowl, I sometimes like to slide the washer on the bolt heads and use a little teflon paste on the side of that rubber washer that will fit against the inside of the tank. Then use another rubber washer, brass washer and lock it together with a nut.
I never use anything on the spud washer. They come in different thicknesses. And some are more spongy than others. Pick one that will let you sit the tank on the bowl and will compress without setting china on china.
You can snug that down pretty good.
Keep in mind though that you are working with pottery, not steel.
Don't worry about the bumps on the china. Don't think that your going to need to sand anything off.
Let me know................ thanks

 

[GregN31]

Thanks for the tips.
I put some paste on the rubber washer fitting against the bottom of the tank. I've also put a rubber washer on the underside of the tank before the brass washer and nut.
So I put it back together and turned it on. NOw I'm waiting.
What I do have is some dripping on the floor on both sides, but these are beads of water here and there on the underside of the tank and if I wipe them off they start forming again. I'm thinking this might be tank sweat from having the cold water in it just now? So what I did was made note of the water level (it is RIGHT on the "Water fill" line in the tank (they have one in there). So I put towels on the floor to catch this initial dripping and I thought I'd wait a while and see if the water line is moving? If it doesn't move, then I think I have it? I'm pretty sure everything else is leak free, the fill valve and flapper aren't leaking, so if the water level doesn't move I hope I can believe that the only stuff I'm seeing now is sweat which will hopefully dissapate after things sit for a while. It usually doesn't drip on the floor so I would expect after a while if its just sweat it would stop doing it enough to drip on the floor. I can't see any obvious leaks from those bolts now. I just see the beading of water droplets here and there that are dripping initially.
So maybe I have it...but I'll just have to wait a while to see I think.
To be safe, I'm keeping that appointment with the plumber until Monday when I can choose whether to call and cancel or call it a victory and cancel the appointment. I sure hope its just sweating now...
Thanks much,
Greg

This works for me. A little sticky stuff like teflon paste on the bottom of the beveled washer before you put the flush valve back in the tank. Yes you can tighten down on that 2" plastic lock nut quite a bit.
If there is room between the bottom of the tank and the top of the bowl, I sometimes like to slide the washer on the bolt heads and use a little teflon paste on the side of that rubber washer that will fit against the inside of the tank. Then use another rubber washer, brass washer and lock it together with a nut.
I never use anything on the spud washer. They come in different thicknesses. And some are more spongy than others. Pick one that will let you sit the tank on the bowl and will compress without setting china on china.
You can snug that down pretty good.
Keep in mind though that you are working with pottery, not steel.
Don't worry about the bumps on the china. Don't think that your going to need to sand anything off.
Let me know................ thanks

 

[Plumber1]

leak

I bet you have it.
Don't feel bad because these are the kind of things that the service guy faces every day and it's frustrating for us too.
Patients is a must when you deal with these things.

 

[GregN31]

Ok, I left it for a while and went back. Still dripping and it seemed like the line moved maybe a bit. So I decided to test it out. I put a kool-aid mix in the tank to turn the water deep red. When I did that, very quickly the droplets on the under side of the tank turned red as well. Additionally, it appears that there are two hair line cracks extending out from the bolt areas outward, right in the line where the droplets keep forming.
I assume this is irrefutable evidence that the tank is cracked?
I assume the only wise thing to do is to replace it?
Any chance I'll find a tank only for a Crane toilet or am I stuck buying a whole new toilet?
PS Regardless of whether I get a new tank or new toilet, the plumbers doing it...enough of my messing around. This one wasn't fated to go my way apparently.
Thanks,
Greg

I bet you have it.
Don't feel bad because these are the kind of things that the service guy faces every day and it's frustrating for us too.
Patients is a must when you deal with these things.

 

[Terry]

You should be positive about this.

Now's you chance to pick out a "better" toilet.