Installing NobleSeal CIS over Green-Stone Ethical Concrete

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    My Noble order is on the way for this large barrier free shower build I'm prepping here in Vancouver and I asked the builder to let me know what type of concrete was used over the Radiant Heating Pipe. He got back to me with this product I have not heard of before and after a quick search found this out about Green-Stone Ethical Concrete.

    ANNOUNCEMENT

    UNITED LOCK-BLOCK LTD™ is pleased to announce the launch of our newest division GREEN-STONE™ Ethical Concrete. Now you can benefit from our extensive World Class concrete experience and ethical business approach.

    GREEN-STONE™ Ethical Concrete is pleased to offer the following:

    • Delivery –The convenience of (7) seven days a week
    • A range of concrete mixes to suit your application and save you money while doing something good for the Environment.
    • Residential concrete that meets Code
    • Commercial concrete that meets CSA
    • Municipal concrete that meets the MMCD and MOT
    • Recycled Ethical Concrete for LEED projects
    • On site aggregate sales and delivery of drain rock and roadbase
    • Free concrete rubble dump to lower your disposal costs

    CALL US FOR A FREE QUOTATION ON YOUR NEXT PROJECT (604) 322-0400 - Source of Annoucemnt


    So it appears they offer up many types of concrete and I will need to find out what went in. My main question tonight is - "Any special considerations of Recycled Ethical Concrete".... ? I'm going to shoot Eric and Richard an email at Noble and ask if they have any recommendations. Last time I inquired about Gyp-crete a primer was needed.

    I'm thinking it might be wise to use Ardex's primer over the substrate, some X32 on the larger divots and then set the NobleSeal CIS down with Ardex X5....

    I'd like to ask that only tile pros and not tile Joe's answer this question.


    This is not from the company but I guess the life cycle of the concrete process. Nice to see some new uses form old concrete.

    [​IMG]

  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    So I found out what type of concrete was used in this Vancouver home. It was SCCSF green flow concrete with fibres from Green Stone Ethical Concrete.

    Now it's time to buck the Noble Boys. Hey Eric, Richard any recommendations for installing your NobleSeal CIS over this type of concrete?
  3. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    Minnesota
    John,

    I have no experience with green stone, sorry. Never heard of it but now I will research it just as the redshoe would!!

    Maybe helpful I recenetly did a bunch of entry floors for an engineer builder. The floors were gypcrete over concrete, poured and fan dryed . He installed the Gypcrete sealer just prior to the tile installs ahead of me tiling. We used hi end Superflex and Medium beds from TEC on porcelain directly over gypcrete and sealer. Some big floats in my setting and these floors seem really stable thusfar!.

    I am not super excited about this system and cannot buy into gypcrete period....... but when an engineer/builder tells you he is assuming responsibility for the longevity and spec'ing the mortar. I will oblige and simply follow my ANSI/TCNA standards.
  4. DougB

    DougB Member

    I think I know what this product is. They are using recycled concrete as the aggregate. The problem is that the used concrete has to be 'busted' up into uniform, right sized pieces. AFAIK, it has low strength - but then you say they have a commercial mix - and you say 'Fiber' - that would be FRC - Fiber Reinforced Concrete.

    Fiber is not new. Long time ago they used horsehair (Green?), and before that straw in mud bricks.

    I doubt there is anything that would affect your shower building.
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I need to call Ardex now. Got a hold of Eric at Noble and he asked me to reach out to them since the plan is to set the NobleSeal CIS down with Ardex X5
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    You need the primer for sure with Gyp-Crete. I learned this from Richard and Eric at Noble Company. And by primer I'm not talking about paint style primer....

    The biggest fear Counter with these installs is the thickness of the Gyp-Crete. You should be asking them to have at least 1 1/4" ABOVE THE TOP of the heating pipe. Many crews in the US are doing a 3/4" pour and nothing more. This in many cases is just covering the 1/2" pipe.

    I would not want to set over that.

    The job I'm on has that eco friendly concrete poured out at 1.5" total thickness. Over that the NobleSeal CIS.

    What I like about NobleSeal CIS here is that they test it as a Crack Isolation Membrane and it also is a waterproof membrane. Many on the uncoupling membranes claim to be crack isolation but the fact is they do not test it and can not sell it as such.

    With all that movement under the substrate (heating pipes expanding and contracting) I like the idea that the membrane from Noble is a CRACK ISOLATION MEMBRANE. That and I do need to tell the contractor that his tile guys need cheap non-modifed thin-set. So Easy.

    [​IMG]

    NobleSeal CIS looks just like NobleSeal TS. Expect without the annoying dark blue seaming tabs. Personally I hate the seaming tabs on NobleSeal TS.
  7. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I just cant get behind gypcrete floors period, price point, speed still its primed gypsum on the floor. Dont like it. This client was the builder/and an engineer and payed me day labor rates for lippage free tile setting labor and advice. No long term responsibility to me or my Company and he grouted all the floors behind me!! BIG BONUS! A real neat client really.

    Funny those blue seams "seam" obsolete to me!! I like the bond to the fleece better, I bet it makes some sort of MFG sense as it is made and rolled on machines.......

    Next week ill be prepping to flood test a curbless TS pan. very tricky buildout.....I may have to have a seam in the field and that I do not like. I wish Noble would figure a way to make TS / CIS 10' wide for these bigger showers... but im sure that would kill the ability to ship it rolled !

    May need to do some lap cut corners instead of fully folded which i do not like also....perhaps even mix some Hydro barrier and fleece or some hydroban membrane into my flashing concerned areas.. Goin cowboy with it Jim....
  8. eurob

    eurob In the trades

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Montreal
    I agree . I also don't like it . I think the gypcrete floors are all about compressive strenght .
    What the builder is using -- the numbers for compressive strenght -- ?

    I've used , the one time , the Lat 125 to install over it .
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,804
    Location:
    New England
    Gypcrete is generally lighter than something like an slc or a mudbed, pumps in fast, flows better than slc, and doesn't take as much skill to get a flat floor. It also works well as a sound and fire suppression layer...the excess moisture in it, like in drywall, helps to keep the layer cooler as it gets driven off and turns to water vapor. As a result, it tends to get used more in high-rises and multifamily dwellings, but does show up in single family dwellings, too.
  10. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    194
    Location:
    Minnesota
    These gypcrete floors were poured over an inch thick and on top of solid cured suspended concrete no in floor heat... Simply used in the last minute to raise and level the floors to meet stair tread height concerns in adjoining rooms and door entry thresholds which also made my setting (floating) very difficult.....

    the clients request.....

    " I want flat level foors and i want you to time out at within a 1/16"-1/8" of both stairways at each end of the hallway!!!!!!!!!


    Gypcrete i am told was chosen for speed, previous experience , affordabilty and ease of use VS. an SLC .

    I used TEC superflex and TEC 3N1 Also spec'd by client and already purchased and on site ( I do like superflex but im not a TEC guy ) a good burn in and full backbutter, every tile cleaned.

    sometimes we just have to go with the flow and make a living.... while trying to build a new client relationship i may bend a bit if we are still being smart with mortars and setting.

    I never saw the sealer he used and applied. I know it was rolled/painted on.
  11. eurob

    eurob In the trades

    Messages:
    446
    Location:
    Montreal
    The super flat floor and controlled heights with requirements surpassing the standards are easily accomplished with mud bed . I am just saying , no pun intended RSCB .


    Gypcrete for speed -- maybe for pouring it -- , but the waiting period is not far from a mud bed -- schedule purposes -- . Weight is probably the only advantage , besides the illusion of saving and having a super flat floor . It is looking perfect until you set tiles on it . Those TB from Tec are just for fun when spec a different mortar . ;)
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Stopped in on the job yesterday to take a look. The rain hit the house before the Ethical Concrete had set up so their was some rain drop holes left behind in places.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source


    Cleaned them up and pre-filled the holes with a little Ardex X-32.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source

    Pulled back the liner for the shower (at entrance) to find that the 2"x4" form was left inlace as permanent structure....

    #%$^ - now I got to rip that out.

    Poured in two gallons of water to the shower pan and studied the shower's drain. Only one weep hole working and I think that was above the top collar. Headign back today to see if the shower drained and how large the standing puddle is.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,787
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Yesterday I went by and cleaned up the X-32 mess I made the day before and gave the floor a good scrubbing with my Diamond scouring brick.

    Still think it needs another pass.

    [​IMG]

    Photo Source


    [​IMG]
    Photo Source
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,804
    Location:
    New England
    Building a shower isn't rocket science, and the supposed pros who did the prep work certainly got paid for it, but it goes to show the TCNA study that says 70-80% of them are built wrong has some good basis in fact. It takes someone who really knows what they are doing to take over and make it right. Luckily, that happened here.

    The moral to this story is: the fact someone does this 'all the time' does not mean that they are doing it right. As a consumer, it behooves you to do some homework so you can recognize when it's not being done right, and then force the issue - after all, you are paying for one to be built right. The industry guidelines are pretty clear about what's required, and there should be no excuses or laments of "I've been doing it like this forever and never had a complaint"...well, maybe they weren't listening, didn't know, or didn't care; any of which can spell a disaster to the end user. Cravat emptor (sp?).
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