Installing NobleSeal CIS over Green-Stone Ethical Concrete

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    My Noble order is on the way for this large barrier free shower build I'm prepping here in Vancouver and I asked the builder to let me know what type of concrete was used over the Radiant Heating Pipe. He got back to me with this product I have not heard of before and after a quick search found this out about Green-Stone Ethical Concrete.

    ANNOUNCEMENT

    UNITED LOCK-BLOCK LTD™ is pleased to announce the launch of our newest division GREEN-STONE™ Ethical Concrete. Now you can benefit from our extensive World Class concrete experience and ethical business approach.

    GREEN-STONE™ Ethical Concrete is pleased to offer the following:

    • Delivery –The convenience of (7) seven days a week
    • A range of concrete mixes to suit your application and save you money while doing something good for the Environment.
    • Residential concrete that meets Code
    • Commercial concrete that meets CSA
    • Municipal concrete that meets the MMCD and MOT
    • Recycled Ethical Concrete for LEED projects
    • On site aggregate sales and delivery of drain rock and roadbase
    • Free concrete rubble dump to lower your disposal costs

    CALL US FOR A FREE QUOTATION ON YOUR NEXT PROJECT (604) 322-0400 - Source of Annoucemnt


    So it appears they offer up many types of concrete and I will need to find out what went in. My main question tonight is - "Any special considerations of Recycled Ethical Concrete".... ? I'm going to shoot Eric and Richard an email at Noble and ask if they have any recommendations. Last time I inquired about Gyp-crete a primer was needed.

    I'm thinking it might be wise to use Ardex's primer over the substrate, some X32 on the larger divots and then set the NobleSeal CIS down with Ardex X5....

    I'd like to ask that only tile pros and not tile Joe's answer this question.


    This is not from the company but I guess the life cycle of the concrete process. Nice to see some new uses form old concrete.

    JW - "When it's perfect. It's Good Enough."

    www.No-Curb.com - my blog site on Barrier Free, No Curb, No Dam and Hobless Showers

    (604) 506-6792 jfrwhipple@gmail.com
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Questions for the Noble Boys.

    So I found out what type of concrete was used in this Vancouver home. It was SCCSF green flow concrete with fibres from Green Stone Ethical Concrete.

    Now it's time to bug the Noble Boys. Hey Eric, Richard any recommendations for installing your NobleSeal CIS over this type of concrete?
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  3. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    John,

    I have no experience with green stone, sorry. Never heard of it but now I will research it just as the redshoe would!!

    Maybe helpful I recenetly did a bunch of entry floors for an engineer builder. The floors were gypcrete over concrete, poured and fan dryed . He installed the Gypcrete sealer just prior to the tile installs ahead of me tiling. We used hi end Superflex and Medium beds from TEC on porcelain directly over gypcrete and sealer. Some big floats in my setting and these floors seem really stable thusfar!.

    I am not super excited about this system and cannot buy into gypcrete period....... but when an engineer/builder tells you he is assuming responsibility for the longevity and spec'ing the mortar. I will oblige and simply follow my ANSI/TCNA standards.
  4. DougB

    DougB Member

    I think I know what this product is. They are using recycled concrete as the aggregate. The problem is that the used concrete has to be 'busted' up into uniform, right sized pieces. AFAIK, it has low strength - but then you say they have a commercial mix - and you say 'Fiber' - that would be FRC - Fiber Reinforced Concrete.

    Fiber is not new. Long time ago they used horsehair (Green?), and before that straw in mud bricks.

    I doubt there is anything that would affect your shower building.
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Questions for Ardex

    I need to call Ardex now. Got a hold of Eric at Noble and he asked me to reach out to them since the plan is to set the NobleSeal CIS down with Ardex X5
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Primer with Gyp-Crete?

    You need the primer for sure with Gyp-Crete. I learned this from Richard and Eric at Noble Company. And by primer I'm not talking about paint style primer....

    The biggest fear Counter with these installs is the thickness of the Gyp-Crete. You should be asking them to have at least 1 1/4" ABOVE THE TOP of the heating pipe. Many crews in the US are doing a 3/4" pour and nothing more. This in many cases is just covering the 1/2" pipe.

    I would not want to set over that.

    The job I'm on has that eco friendly concrete poured out at 1.5" total thickness. Over that the NobleSeal CIS.

    What I like about NobleSeal CIS here is that they test it as a Crack Isolation Membrane and it also is a waterproof membrane. Many on the uncoupling membranes claim to be crack isolation but the fact is they do not test it and can not sell it as such.

    With all that movement under the substrate (heating pipes expanding and contracting) I like the idea that the membrane from Noble is a CRACK ISOLATION MEMBRANE. That and I do need to tell the contractor that his tile guys need cheap non-modifed thin-set. So Easy.

    [​IMG]

    NobleSeal CIS looks just like NobleSeal TS. Expect without the annoying dark blue seaming tabs. Personally I hate the seaming tabs on NobleSeal TS.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  7. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Location:
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    I just cant get behind gypcrete floors period, price point, speed still its primed gypsum on the floor. Dont like it. This client was the builder/and an engineer and payed me day labor rates for lippage free tile setting labor and advice. No long term responsibility to me or my Company and he grouted all the floors behind me!! BIG BONUS! A real neat client really.

    Funny those blue seams "seam" obsolete to me!! I like the bond to the fleece better, I bet it makes some sort of MFG sense as it is made and rolled on machines.......

    Next week ill be prepping to flood test a curbless TS pan. very tricky buildout.....I may have to have a seam in the field and that I do not like. I wish Noble would figure a way to make TS / CIS 10' wide for these bigger showers... but im sure that would kill the ability to ship it rolled !

    May need to do some lap cut corners instead of fully folded which i do not like also....perhaps even mix some Hydro barrier and fleece or some hydroban membrane into my flashing concerned areas.. Goin cowboy with it Jim....
  8. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    I agree . I also don't like it . I think the gypcrete floors are all about compressive strenght .
    What the builder is using -- the numbers for compressive strenght -- ?

    I've used , the one time , the Lat 125 to install over it .
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Gypcrete is generally lighter than something like an slc or a mudbed, pumps in fast, flows better than slc, and doesn't take as much skill to get a flat floor. It also works well as a sound and fire suppression layer...the excess moisture in it, like in drywall, helps to keep the layer cooler as it gets driven off and turns to water vapor. As a result, it tends to get used more in high-rises and multifamily dwellings, but does show up in single family dwellings, too.
  10. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Location:
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    These gypcrete floors were poured over an inch thick and on top of solid cured suspended concrete no in floor heat... Simply used in the last minute to raise and level the floors to meet stair tread height concerns in adjoining rooms and door entry thresholds which also made my setting (floating) very difficult.....

    the clients request.....

    " I want flat level foors and i want you to time out at within a 1/16"-1/8" of both stairways at each end of the hallway!!!!!!!!!


    Gypcrete i am told was chosen for speed, previous experience , affordabilty and ease of use VS. an SLC .

    I used TEC superflex and TEC 3N1 Also spec'd by client and already purchased and on site ( I do like superflex but im not a TEC guy ) a good burn in and full backbutter, every tile cleaned.

    sometimes we just have to go with the flow and make a living.... while trying to build a new client relationship i may bend a bit if we are still being smart with mortars and setting.

    I never saw the sealer he used and applied. I know it was rolled/painted on.
  11. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

    Messages:
    838
    Location:
    Montreal
    The super flat floor and controlled heights with requirements surpassing the standards are easily accomplished with mud bed . I am just saying , no pun intended RSCB .


    Gypcrete for speed -- maybe for pouring it -- , but the waiting period is not far from a mud bed -- schedule purposes -- . Weight is probably the only advantage , besides the illusion of saving and having a super flat floor . It is looking perfect until you set tiles on it . Those TB from Tec are just for fun when spec a different mortar . ;)
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Holes in Ethical Concrete

    Stopped in on the job yesterday to take a look. The rain hit the house before the Ethical Concrete had set up so their was some rain drop holes left behind in places.


    Cleaned them up and pre-filled the holes with a little Ardex X-32.

    Pulled back the liner for the shower (at entrance) to find that the 2"x4" form was left inlace as permanent structure....

    #%$^ - now I got to rip that out.

    Poured in two gallons of water to the shower pan and studied the shower's drain. Only one weep hole working and I think that was above the top collar. Headign back today to see if the shower drained and how large the standing puddle is.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Building a shower isn't rocket science, and the supposed pros who did the prep work certainly got paid for it, but it goes to show the TCNA study that says 70-80% of them are built wrong has some good basis in fact. It takes someone who really knows what they are doing to take over and make it right. Luckily, that happened here.

    The moral to this story is: the fact someone does this 'all the time' does not mean that they are doing it right. As a consumer, it behooves you to do some homework so you can recognize when it's not being done right, and then force the issue - after all, you are paying for one to be built right. The industry guidelines are pretty clear about what's required, and there should be no excuses or laments of "I've been doing it like this forever and never had a complaint"...well, maybe they weren't listening, didn't know, or didn't care; any of which can spell a disaster to the end user. Cravat emptor (sp?).
  15. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Curbless Shower Update



    There is a lot going on in this one photo.

    The key point I'm trying to showcase here is the scratch coat step shown in the process mode here. The material to the left of my trowel is Ardex X5 Grey thin-set. This is the thin set I will use to install the NobleSeal CIS over this pre-slope and likewise over the ethical concrete outside the shower.

    My pre slope material is Mapecem Fast Settign Screed Mortar. It tends to be a little rough after I finish my pre slope and this scratch coat a couple days later allows me to install the NobleSeal CIS a little better and a little smoother.

    You can see the White ACO shower drain in the center. This I installed two days back with some silicone and some screws as wedges to hold it in place while the silicone set up. The screws are removed in this photo.

    You can see the 2" test plug protecting the drain from debris. This is the wrong type of test plug for this drain! An inflatable test plug is need to enter the smaller top the ACO drain has.

    You can see a bead of Silicone (White) around the room. This is more of an Australian thing and simply a bond breaker for the corners.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Progress Update:

    On Saturday before I head up to Masset I tried to install the NobleSeal CIS over the Ethical Concrete floor. I of course re hit the floor with the magic brick, multiple washes and fresh water rinse. A final vacuum and then I started to install the NobleSeal CIS over the concrete floor with Ardex X5.

    It was for lack of better words an Epic Failure. I scratched the X5 in and troweled out a total area of about 24 square feet (4'of 12' x 6' wide roll). I went to smooth this in and it just did not feel right. I smooth out the sheet and did my pull check to find I was not getting a good bond.

    Worse the thin-set was kicking off to fast. I thought about it for a half minute and then made the right call.

    ABORT.

    I pulled the NobleSeal CIS out, scrape of the excessive thin set and then washed the back side clean. Then I scraped off the floor and trashed that product. I used the reaming fresh thin-set for simply a scratch coat. The X5 went on smoothly and I packed up. Total Piss Off but the right call.

    Today I looked into a primer to slow this curing time.

    Have either Counter Balance or Roberto tried any good ones? I need to call Don from Ardex and check in.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  17. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    John, ive use a lot of quicrete bonding adhesive, and customs latex primer. Both with good effect both from the bigbox.

    I have not worked with ethical crete nor the ardex

    If you sealed the crete and sandwhich ardex in between sealed crete and cis .... Hows it to dry out/cure? Just a forethought of concern.

    That stinks , sounds like that job is throwing you some real challenges.

    Surely youll win.!
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Time for Tech Support:

    There have been many challenges on this job. My gut tells me that it's time to bring down the rep. I'm going to get my Ardex Rep to come and check out the project.

    Since the job will look so baller in the end I do not think that will be a problem. Tub is ready for slab and totally decked out in Ardex 8+9.

    As for the cure times I do not think it is a permeant sealer. The label on the Pink Primer from Ardex says to install and then all to cure for 3-24 hours. I assume this means you can not prime on Friday and set on Monday.

    If it looks concerning I'll keep the CIS for a few more showers and use the Ardex 8+9 as the crack isolation. Even then I worry with that.

    Might be time to bust out the Grani Liquid. Maybe one coat with a mesh and then another to set the CIS.....
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  19. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    NobleSeal TS Pull Check:

    This photo shows more what I wanted to see last week in Vancouver. Pull Checks are essential for proper tile setting and membrane setting installations.

    Here you see below a NobleSeal TS Pull Check from Masset BC. The NobleSeal TS being used for crack isolation over a radiant heat wire system.

    [​IMG]


    In the photo above you can see my most recent pull check while installing NobleSeal TS over some heating wires on a project up North in Masset, BC. Notice the few spots where the trowel lines can still be seen on the floor. Notice the few spots of blue on the back side of the NobleSeal TS.

    This is close to perfect. A little touch more thin-set and some better work sponging from the top side once layed made this go down better.

    ALWAYS PREFORM A PULL CHECK.

    Before I headed North last week I preformed a pull check on some NobleSeal CIS I was installing and I had a bad feeling about the look. I ripped out the worked and aborted. This week or next I'll chat with my thin-set manufacture and come up with a plan to re-install.

    Pull Check

    Pull Check

    Pull Check.

    You do these installing membranes and tile. It is what separates the Pro's from the Joe's


    The thin-set needs to bond completely to the back of the NobleSeal TS. The floor should have even peaks and they should look like roots not straight trowel lines.

    No bald spots.

    No thin-set pulling up dust.

    No rocks.

    no dry bits.

    In some areas the thin-set is heavy and others light.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
    RedShoecounterbalance likes this.
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    ARDEX P 51 Primer

    I spoke with my Ardex Rep today and discussed my project. After that I picked up a gallon of Ardex P 51 from Pacific Rim Flooring. $47.52 plus tax.

    [​IMG]
    ARDEX P 51 PRIMER

    Installation Tip:
    Shake well upside down for more than sixty seconds. Make sure contents are fully mixed.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    View Data Sheet


    The new plan is to do a pre prime with 1 part P 51 and 3 parts water. Let dry one to three hours.

    Then the primary priming of 1 part P 51 and 1 part water. Let dry 3 - 24 hours.

    Instal NobleSeal CIS with Ardex X5.

    Found these interesting links on Ardex P 51

    Tech Data
    Case Study
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