Installing NobleSeal CIS over Green-Stone Ethical Concrete

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    My Noble order is on the way for this large barrier free shower build I'm prepping here in Vancouver and I asked the builder to let me know what type of concrete was used over the Radiant Heating Pipe. He got back to me with this product I have not heard of before and after a quick search found this out about Green-Stone Ethical Concrete.

    ANNOUNCEMENT

    UNITED LOCK-BLOCK LTD™ is pleased to announce the launch of our newest division GREEN-STONE™ Ethical Concrete. Now you can benefit from our extensive World Class concrete experience and ethical business approach.

    GREEN-STONE™ Ethical Concrete is pleased to offer the following:

    • Delivery –The convenience of (7) seven days a week
    • A range of concrete mixes to suit your application and save you money while doing something good for the Environment.
    • Residential concrete that meets Code
    • Commercial concrete that meets CSA
    • Municipal concrete that meets the MMCD and MOT
    • Recycled Ethical Concrete for LEED projects
    • On site aggregate sales and delivery of drain rock and roadbase
    • Free concrete rubble dump to lower your disposal costs

    CALL US FOR A FREE QUOTATION ON YOUR NEXT PROJECT (604) 322-0400 - Source of Annoucemnt


    So it appears they offer up many types of concrete and I will need to find out what went in. My main question tonight is - "Any special considerations of Recycled Ethical Concrete".... ? I'm going to shoot Eric and Richard an email at Noble and ask if they have any recommendations. Last time I inquired about Gyp-crete a primer was needed.

    I'm thinking it might be wise to use Ardex's primer over the substrate, some X32 on the larger divots and then set the NobleSeal CIS down with Ardex X5....

    I'd like to ask that only tile pros and not tile Joe's answer this question.


    This is not from the company but I guess the life cycle of the concrete process. Nice to see some new uses form old concrete.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2016
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Questions for the Noble Boys.

    So I found out what type of concrete was used in this Vancouver home. It was SCCSF green flow concrete with fibres from Green Stone Ethical Concrete.

    Now it's time to bug the Noble Boys. Hey Eric, Richard any recommendations for installing your NobleSeal CIS over this type of concrete?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
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  4. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

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    John,

    I have no experience with green stone, sorry. Never heard of it but now I will research it just as the redshoe would!!

    Maybe helpful I recenetly did a bunch of entry floors for an engineer builder. The floors were gypcrete over concrete, poured and fan dryed . He installed the Gypcrete sealer just prior to the tile installs ahead of me tiling. We used hi end Superflex and Medium beds from TEC on porcelain directly over gypcrete and sealer. Some big floats in my setting and these floors seem really stable thusfar!.

    I am not super excited about this system and cannot buy into gypcrete period....... but when an engineer/builder tells you he is assuming responsibility for the longevity and spec'ing the mortar. I will oblige and simply follow my ANSI/TCNA standards.
     
  5. DougB

    DougB Member

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    I think I know what this product is. They are using recycled concrete as the aggregate. The problem is that the used concrete has to be 'busted' up into uniform, right sized pieces. AFAIK, it has low strength - but then you say they have a commercial mix - and you say 'Fiber' - that would be FRC - Fiber Reinforced Concrete.

    Fiber is not new. Long time ago they used horsehair (Green?), and before that straw in mud bricks.

    I doubt there is anything that would affect your shower building.
     
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
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    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Questions for Ardex

    I need to call Ardex now. Got a hold of Eric at Noble and he asked me to reach out to them since the plan is to set the NobleSeal CIS down with Ardex X5
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Primer with Gyp-Crete?

    You need the primer for sure with Gyp-Crete. I learned this from Richard and Eric at Noble Company. And by primer I'm not talking about paint style primer....

    The biggest fear Counter with these installs is the thickness of the Gyp-Crete. You should be asking them to have at least 1 1/4" ABOVE THE TOP of the heating pipe. Many crews in the US are doing a 3/4" pour and nothing more. This in many cases is just covering the 1/2" pipe.

    I would not want to set over that.

    The job I'm on has that eco friendly concrete poured out at 1.5" total thickness. Over that the NobleSeal CIS.

    What I like about NobleSeal CIS here is that they test it as a Crack Isolation Membrane and it also is a waterproof membrane. Many on the uncoupling membranes claim to be crack isolation but the fact is they do not test it and can not sell it as such.

    With all that movement under the substrate (heating pipes expanding and contracting) I like the idea that the membrane from Noble is a CRACK ISOLATION MEMBRANE. That and I do need to tell the contractor that his tile guys need cheap non-modifed thin-set. So Easy.

    [​IMG]

    NobleSeal CIS looks just like NobleSeal TS. Expect without the annoying dark blue seaming tabs. Personally I hate the seaming tabs on NobleSeal TS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  8. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

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    Location:
    Minnesota
    I just cant get behind gypcrete floors period, price point, speed still its primed gypsum on the floor. Dont like it. This client was the builder/and an engineer and payed me day labor rates for lippage free tile setting labor and advice. No long term responsibility to me or my Company and he grouted all the floors behind me!! BIG BONUS! A real neat client really.

    Funny those blue seams "seam" obsolete to me!! I like the bond to the fleece better, I bet it makes some sort of MFG sense as it is made and rolled on machines.......

    Next week ill be prepping to flood test a curbless TS pan. very tricky buildout.....I may have to have a seam in the field and that I do not like. I wish Noble would figure a way to make TS / CIS 10' wide for these bigger showers... but im sure that would kill the ability to ship it rolled !

    May need to do some lap cut corners instead of fully folded which i do not like also....perhaps even mix some Hydro barrier and fleece or some hydroban membrane into my flashing concerned areas.. Goin cowboy with it Jim....
     
  9. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    I agree . I also don't like it . I think the gypcrete floors are all about compressive strenght .
    What the builder is using -- the numbers for compressive strenght -- ?

    I've used , the one time , the Lat 125 to install over it .
     
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Gypcrete is generally lighter than something like an slc or a mudbed, pumps in fast, flows better than slc, and doesn't take as much skill to get a flat floor. It also works well as a sound and fire suppression layer...the excess moisture in it, like in drywall, helps to keep the layer cooler as it gets driven off and turns to water vapor. As a result, it tends to get used more in high-rises and multifamily dwellings, but does show up in single family dwellings, too.
     
  11. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

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    These gypcrete floors were poured over an inch thick and on top of solid cured suspended concrete no in floor heat... Simply used in the last minute to raise and level the floors to meet stair tread height concerns in adjoining rooms and door entry thresholds which also made my setting (floating) very difficult.....

    the clients request.....

    " I want flat level foors and i want you to time out at within a 1/16"-1/8" of both stairways at each end of the hallway!!!!!!!!!


    Gypcrete i am told was chosen for speed, previous experience , affordabilty and ease of use VS. an SLC .

    I used TEC superflex and TEC 3N1 Also spec'd by client and already purchased and on site ( I do like superflex but im not a TEC guy ) a good burn in and full backbutter, every tile cleaned.

    sometimes we just have to go with the flow and make a living.... while trying to build a new client relationship i may bend a bit if we are still being smart with mortars and setting.

    I never saw the sealer he used and applied. I know it was rolled/painted on.
     
  12. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    The super flat floor and controlled heights with requirements surpassing the standards are easily accomplished with mud bed . I am just saying , no pun intended RSCB .


    Gypcrete for speed -- maybe for pouring it -- , but the waiting period is not far from a mud bed -- schedule purposes -- . Weight is probably the only advantage , besides the illusion of saving and having a super flat floor . It is looking perfect until you set tiles on it . Those TB from Tec are just for fun when spec a different mortar . ;)
     
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Building a shower isn't rocket science, and the supposed pros who did the prep work certainly got paid for it, but it goes to show the TCNA study that says 70-80% of them are built wrong has some good basis in fact. It takes someone who really knows what they are doing to take over and make it right. Luckily, that happened here.

    The moral to this story is: the fact someone does this 'all the time' does not mean that they are doing it right. As a consumer, it behooves you to do some homework so you can recognize when it's not being done right, and then force the issue - after all, you are paying for one to be built right. The industry guidelines are pretty clear about what's required, and there should be no excuses or laments of "I've been doing it like this forever and never had a complaint"...well, maybe they weren't listening, didn't know, or didn't care; any of which can spell a disaster to the end user. Cravat emptor (sp?).
     
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
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    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
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    North Vancouver, BC
    Progress Update:

    On Saturday before I head up to Masset I tried to install the NobleSeal CIS over the Ethical Concrete floor. I of course re hit the floor with the magic brick, multiple washes and fresh water rinse. A final vacuum and then I started to install the NobleSeal CIS over the concrete floor with Ardex X5.

    It was for lack of better words an Epic Failure. I scratched the X5 in and troweled out a total area of about 24 square feet (4'of 12' x 6' wide roll). I went to smooth this in and it just did not feel right. I smooth out the sheet and did my pull check to find I was not getting a good bond.

    Worse the thin-set was kicking off to fast. I thought about it for a half minute and then made the right call.

    ABORT.

    I pulled the NobleSeal CIS out, scrape of the excessive thin set and then washed the back side clean. Then I scraped off the floor and trashed that product. I used the reaming fresh thin-set for simply a scratch coat. The X5 went on smoothly and I packed up. Total Piss Off but the right call.

    Today I looked into a primer to slow this curing time.

    Have either Counter Balance or Roberto tried any good ones? I need to call Don from Ardex and check in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  15. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

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    Minnesota
    John, ive use a lot of quicrete bonding adhesive, and customs latex primer. Both with good effect both from the bigbox.

    I have not worked with ethical crete nor the ardex

    If you sealed the crete and sandwhich ardex in between sealed crete and cis .... Hows it to dry out/cure? Just a forethought of concern.

    That stinks , sounds like that job is throwing you some real challenges.

    Surely youll win.!
     
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
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    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Time for Tech Support:

    There have been many challenges on this job. My gut tells me that it's time to bring down the rep. I'm going to get my Ardex Rep to come and check out the project.

    Since the job will look so baller in the end I do not think that will be a problem. Tub is ready for slab and totally decked out in Ardex 8+9.

    As for the cure times I do not think it is a permeant sealer. The label on the Pink Primer from Ardex says to install and then all to cure for 3-24 hours. I assume this means you can not prime on Friday and set on Monday.

    If it looks concerning I'll keep the CIS for a few more showers and use the Ardex 8+9 as the crack isolation. Even then I worry with that.

    Might be time to bust out the Grani Liquid. Maybe one coat with a mesh and then another to set the CIS.....
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  17. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
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    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    ARDEX P 51 Primer

    I spoke with my Ardex Rep today and discussed my project. After that I picked up a gallon of Ardex P 51 from Pacific Rim Flooring. $47.52 plus tax.

    [​IMG]
    ARDEX P 51 PRIMER

    Installation Tip:
    Shake well upside down for more than sixty seconds. Make sure contents are fully mixed.




    View Data Sheet


    The new plan is to do a pre prime with 1 part P 51 and 3 parts water. Let dry one to three hours.

    Then the primary priming of 1 part P 51 and 1 part water. Let dry 3 - 24 hours.

    Instal NobleSeal CIS with Ardex X5.

    Found these interesting links on Ardex P 51

    Tech Data
    Case Study
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2016
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    All of the surface membrane manufacture's installation instructions tell you to do a pull check to verify proper coverage. Even a non-pro that can read and follow instructions (this is key for any install!) can achieve good results if they verify their work is up to par. If it isn't, it is often the surface prep or (more common) improper thinset (either not mixed properly, or not the proper type or not the proper trowel used). It should not take a lot of pressure to bond the membrane - if you can't get it to embed the fleece properly, it either was too dry to start with, you did not dampen the surface first (this is really critical with some substrates, and a very good idea with all of them), or you waited too long to cover it with the membrane.
     
  19. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
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    FWIW, a good spray down with a garden sprayer and some water to saturate the substrate would probably have negated the need for the primer. Or, maybe a few passes with a wet mop. You do not want any standing water, but if the water is being absorbed, you can spray or mop it again until it stops absorbing. Once any standing water is gone, spread your thinset, and you should be golden. Then, instead of spending about $50, and waiting essentially a day for things to dry in between coats, you'd already be done with money in your pocket and even a lot more if you're paying someone to do it for you. The goal here is to prevent the thinset from being sucked dry prematurely so that it stays fluid enough to embed the fleece of the membrane properly.
     
  20. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

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    Apr 7, 2014
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I now have a tile vendor stocking some ardex , 8+9 etc.... Gonna have to try it!

    That is a beast of a project aka a fun challenge
     
  21. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Some things about Ardex 8+9 you can not learn about from reading stuff online.

    1). The box is total and utter crap. DO NOT TRUST THE HANDLE
    2). The mixing recommendations leave lots to be desired. I mix 2-3 min let slake for 2 and re-mix for 1.
    3). Get some SK mesh. Stuff if awesome with 8+9 banding corners!

    Counter the last Noble I installed over the primed (P 51) concrete was some of the best I have layed down. Ardex has like Laticrete great tech support. Like Mapei the Germans try and hide the date code. Check out my blog post on reading the date codes for Ardex's products.
     
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