Installing NobleSeal CIS over Green-Stone Ethical Concrete

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    All of the surface membrane manufacture's installation instructions tell you to do a pull check to verify proper coverage. Even a non-pro that can read and follow instructions (this is key for any install!) can achieve good results if they verify their work is up to par. If it isn't, it is often the surface prep or (more common) improper thinset (either not mixed properly, or not the proper type or not the proper trowel used). It should not take a lot of pressure to bond the membrane - if you can't get it to embed the fleece properly, it either was too dry to start with, you did not dampen the surface first (this is really critical with some substrates, and a very good idea with all of them), or you waited too long to cover it with the membrane.
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    First Primer Coat of Ardex P 51:

    [​IMG]

    First Coat was just applied. I mixed the one gallon concentrated P 51 with three parts water to one part primer. A good mix with my margin trowel and then applied with an exploded tip broom. The first coat went on well. I made up a two liter batch but only used one liter for this room. The room measures roughly 12' x 8' or 96 square feet.

    The stop watch is set. I bounced downtown for a client meeting and will double back for the second coat or primary coat of the Ardex P 51. This second pass needs to be applied between 1-3 hours from the first coat. The second coat will be mixed at a ratio of one part Ardex P 51 to one part water. This coat will dry 3-24 hours before the installation of the NobleSeal CIS Crack Isolation Membrane.

    JW - "When it's perfect. It's Good Enough."

    www.No-Curb.com - my blog site on Barrier Free, No Curb, No Dam and Hobless Showers


    (604) 506-6792 jfrwhipple@gmail.com
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Primary Priming Coat 1 to 1 Ratio

    After my meeting I doubled back to do the primary priming coat or the 1 to 1 mix ratio. To ensure I made this right I mixed a fresh batch with one litre of water and one litre of P 51. I applied this the same way with the broom and then headed back across the bridge to pick up a couple ACO drains I sold to a builder in Richmond.

    [​IMG]

    After a few hours of running around I went back to my job and installed the NobleSeal CIS over the primed Ethical Concrete. WHAT A DIFFERENCE !!!

    The primer worked as planned and the NobleSeal CIS went down like butter.

    [​IMG]
    That is what I want to see when I preform my Pull Check.

    Even after laying 72 square feet (6' wide roll x 12' long piece). Working out the air bubbles. Wiping the membrane clean. I still could work little bits of thin-set out the edges. This primer did an excellent job.

    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    NobleSeal CIS

    [​IMG]
    Later next week I will tie in this NobleSeal CIS to the shower's same NobleSeal CIS and then preform the flood test. I will be bonding my capillary break to this surface.

    After the shower passes it's flood test I need only install the ACO tile insert drain and float out (install mortar bed around drain) the shower floor with Laticrete 3701 and this job is a wrap. Whoops. I still need to support the tub from below. That is what those 4-1 bags are for.

    [​IMG]
    This bathroom is eight feet wide by 12' long. That's just the dry side. One of the real advantages of NobleSeal CIS is it's size. At 6' wide it covers most of the bathroom in one sheet. The large sheet allows me to drop in a full sheet of drywall (4'x8') to work on top of while setting the perimeter. Movement from hands and knees changes the bond when you work directly on top of the membrane. This movement can shift a sheet or cause air pockets to form. I installed the NobleSeal CIS towards me. First setting 3' near the shower. Pull check, weight and then I worked towards the back wall. When I could no longer fit I stepped through the wall framing and carried in one sheet of drywall. this I drop down and stepped onto. Being careful to keep my weight six inches back from the drywall edges.

    I later walked out from the center of the drywall to the edges. Worked out some tiny air bubbles. Wiped the edges. Place a few buckets on my seams and headed home for a buddy's Pig Roast!
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,323
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, a good spray down with a garden sprayer and some water to saturate the substrate would probably have negated the need for the primer. Or, maybe a few passes with a wet mop. You do not want any standing water, but if the water is being absorbed, you can spray or mop it again until it stops absorbing. Once any standing water is gone, spread your thinset, and you should be golden. Then, instead of spending about $50, and waiting essentially a day for things to dry in between coats, you'd already be done with money in your pocket and even a lot more if you're paying someone to do it for you. The goal here is to prevent the thinset from being sucked dry prematurely so that it stays fluid enough to embed the fleece of the membrane properly.
  6. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Minnesota
    I now have a tile vendor stocking some ardex , 8+9 etc.... Gonna have to try it!

    That is a beast of a project aka a fun challenge
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Some things about Ardex 8+9 you can not learn about from reading stuff online.

    1). The box is total and utter crap. DO NOT TRUST THE HANDLE
    2). The mixing recommendations leave lots to be desired. I mix 2-3 min let slake for 2 and re-mix for 1.
    3). Get some SK mesh. Stuff if awesome with 8+9 banding corners!

    Counter the last Noble I installed over the primed (P 51) concrete was some of the best I have layed down. Ardex has like Laticrete great tech support. Like Mapei the Germans try and hide the date code. Check out my blog post on reading the date codes for Ardex's products.
  8. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Location:
    Minnesota
    Glad to hear you got the result with primer...

    I have gotten to the point where i include asking venders to verify datecodes while pulling my orders.

    I have sent my helper for 2-3 hr runs to pic up supplies and return with crap unusable product from some of my favorite mfg. resulting in lost day of production and the time/fuel. One day for example a loss of $300 for bad product date codes.

    And no i dont have a helper unless im pouring a mud floor or big pan! A rare treat ...

    No big deal to the vendor .

    Do everything myself, ask every question twice ...i call it peeventive maintanance!
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
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    You have to Counter. At least your a pro and check. How many people do you think even do that.

    When I asked Ardex the first time about reading their code I was told I had to call in each number and wait for a call back. Then I tried calling the US line and got someone there who gave me the formula.

    If everyone new how to read date codes there would be a lot of pissed off supply houses with useless product.

    I spoke years back with a cement tech at one of the large Vancouver concrete plants. he told me "Always check the dates and always buy cement based products from company's that sell a lot".

    One time I used thin-set from my wood working supplier for a Kerdi job. About ten years ago. Next day I go to clean up and the Kerdi sucked right off the wall !!! When I called my Kerdi rep the first thing he did was ask me about the date codes.... Now I make a habit of documenting them....
  10. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    John, nice pics of this shower on your nocurb site.....looks to be austrailian code influenced!!

    Hows that curbless entry gonna time out after you pour your pan and set drain?


    Just Curiousity....
  11. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
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    I discussed this yesterday with the builder after I hit him up for a $1,250.00 progress payment. I'll be using a Stainless Steel Tile Edging Profile as capillary break at the entry to the shower. The tile outside the shower most likely a large 1'x2' Porcelain. The tile in the shower a 2"x2". This shower gets a 1400mm ACO linear drain with tile grate insert.

    The shower floor tile will meet the Capillary break and finish up roughly 1/8" below the top. I will be setting the drain today or Tuesday and will snap some pictures. The finished tile might not go in for six more months. The crew just finished the roof. Siding needs to go on. There has yet to be any insulation and vapour barrier installed.
  12. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Location:
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    Ok so you are going to taper/feather your pan at cappilary edging i would guess....


    Nice, the builder has you in their well in advance ..... Makes the project easier ..... Hopefully they protect your work while the other crews move fwd!!!!!
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I protected my work.

    This builder has studied so many of my blog posts here and at my blog page. When he called me he had followed one of my blog posts about preparing a negative void for the shower area. This was done by lowering the entire shower floor and tub area.

    Ideal for me and my ACO drain. Originally this was suppose to be a supply only. In the end the builder wanted me to do the job. I'm glad he did because the original shower waterproofing was crap. Glad I ripped that out.
  14. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Hopefully you are getting compensated for all your extra effort/skillset/materials..
  15. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Will see. I quoted this job fixed price and have all ready gone past my time guess. It's about pride and process photo's now. Hard parts are done. Now to set the ACO linear drain and wait for the shower and bathroom walls to get boarded.

    Then I'll button it all up with 8+9 and hand it over to the builders crew.
  16. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    554
    Location:
    Minnesota
    JW.... Ill be starting my next shower this coming week... Full noblets/flex. Pan with ebbe drain and my first pairing with 8+9 finally have an ardex vendor here stocking 8+9.

    In regards to coverage/yield, is their data accurate? Over wonderboard lite that is.

    Exited for this build ..... Tough neo angle pan .... Client paying top dollar for a flood tested quality buildout....
  17. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Close to 80 square is a good guess.

    Make sure the 8+9 is fresh. A client of mine picked some up in Dayton, OH that was a year and half old.
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Now they don't teach things like this in school to my knowledge but cleaning a floor has a lot to do with touch and feel. How does the floor feel. When you touch it does it feel slimy. What happens when you scrub it. What does the water bucket look like.

    When you work with concrete you learn how it acts. What it feels like and how it should react with water. Is it drying to fast. Is it beading.... On an on. Here is a time lapse video of my most recent job in West Vancouver. The home's concrete floors trashed by the dry wall crew.

    I used water, elbow grease, a wire brush, elbow grease, an axe, some elbow grease, a 3" scrapper, diamond brick, and more elbow grease to get the job done. The video is only 2 minted 28 seconds long but the process took roughly 3 hours.


    The video is only 2:28 minutes
    TIME LAPSE


    Today my shoulders are sore. I'm still tired from the days end blast. You can rent a machine to do the hard parts.
  19. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Minnesota
    so true.... bond breakers and porousity ......

    Note to self: pick up a few pairs of overalls.

    nice vid John
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC

    I thought my viewing audience would enjoy the videos more without my Ass Crack spoiling the film! LOL I think the video makes me look fat.... No wait - I am! :) After watching the video like three times I'm so laying off the cookies and ice cream.

    I'm so spent and have another killer hard day today. #$$^$ I thought it was going to get easier. Not harder....
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