Install Drake II questions on steps in write-up

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by azmikie, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. azmikie

    azmikie New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Mesa, Arizona
    First off, I am no plumber, so sorry if these question are something assumed to be known information.
    1. In steps 8 and 9 it says to install the tank bolts when you install the tank to the bottom using only one nut per bolt. My assembly instructions tell me to install the bolts to the tank with a nut and the the tank to the bottom with a second nut. Can you clear this up for me?

    2 In the next post by Terry it says under the wax ring picture "Notice that the bag of bolts includes four nuts and four washers." My floor mounting kit only came with two bolts, two nuts, two plastic washers and two metal washers. What is the second set of nuts for in the one you have pictured?
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    New York, NY
    These are actually good questions.

    First: single-nutting vs double-nutting the tank installation. The preferred way explained on this forum is the double-nut approach, and it's traditional. You take the rubber washer and slide it over the bolt. You insert the bolt into the tank. Only the bolt head and rubber washer are inside the tank. To ensure that this connection stays straight and firm, you put a metal washer and nut on the outside of the tank. This compresses the bolt head absolutely-vertically into the rubber washer, and seals the bolt hole in the tank. So, when you go to tighten the tank onto the bowl, you don't end up applying pressure more on one side of the washer than the other, or pulling the tank down any way but vertically. Now, you mount the tank onto the bowl, and use a rubber washer, metal washer, and the other nut underneath the bowl to do so. This is the way Toto recommends it. It's the way that Fluidmaster and Korky did their toilet rehab kits for years. Then, the manufacturers found out that lots of DIYs and some pros would just chuck the extra washers and nuts, using only one of each, because they don't read directions. Korky claims to have done lots of research and swears that there is no advantage to double-nutting, but admits that they saved some $$ by revising their kits to eliminate the extra set of hardware. Personally, I think you are better off long-term double-nutting. My own experience with a Korky kit was that the first go-round had the bolts at something of an angle to the bottom of the tank by the time I was done slowly tightening the tank down bit by bit to compress the tank-to-bowl gasket and get a firm connection between tank and bowl; it didn't leak around the bolts, but in a few years, it most likely would have. I detached the tank and started over. It took a whole lot of extra care to get that bolt-head/washer seal perfectly-vertical while tightening just the one nut from underneath the bowl, in part because the bolt was having to penetrate two holes but being held in place only by the tension applied from underneath the furthest hole. I love the folks at Korky but I disagree with their analysis, if for no other reason that it makes it harder to get it right the first time. At a minimum, double-nutting is chicken soup -- can't hurt. And Toto gives you the hardware you need to do it right. On the Jamie instructions, he doesn't really say not to do that; I think it's subsumed in the instructions about using the hardware.

    Second: Double-nutting the closet bolts. Most manufacturers don't tell you to do this. The way you see in the Toto instructions is to stand the closet bolts up in the flange, to the extent that they will stand, then mount the toilet on them, then on top of the toilet put the plastic base cap, washer and secure with the nut, cut the extra length of closet bolt with a Dremel or hacksaw, and install the cap on top. What many pros do (and Terry is one) is to use that extra nut and washer to secure the closet bolt to the flange first before mounting the toilet. Instead of just having it dangling there loosy-goosy trying to stand up in the flange, you position it where you want it and use the extra washer and nut to secure it to the flange before you put the toilet on top. That way, they stay standing up straight where you want them when you put the toilet on top. Some kit manufacturers now give you a little plastic sleevy thing to prop them up. The nut and washer work best, and for a first-timer, they actually cut the time, even though you have to take time to attach them.

    Bottom line, neither way is wrong, but the consensus on here (and Terry's way) is to double-nut both connections. As you can see, there is no downside to doing it this more cautious, thorough way, and logical reasons for doing so.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  3. azmikie

    azmikie New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Mesa, Arizona
    Thank you very much for the response.
  4. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Happy to help! :)
  5. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,146
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    When Jamie wrote those instructions, they only came with one nut and washer for each bolt. Several years ago, TOTO started sending two nuts and two washers for each tank to bowl bolt. It makes a much better connection.

    I had added this picture showing the extra nut and washer, but forgot to change the text.

    [​IMG]

    Snugging up the large nut

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  6. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    Hello Terry, I was following this advice below and just installed Toto Drake II toilet today. I refer to this procedure - "...it is not necessary for the tank to touch the bowl on all sides, a little gap all the way around is fine... ".
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?743-Installing-a-Toto-Drake-CST744-or-CST454CEFG-2-piece-toilet-written-by-Jamie-Love

    Only problem I have with it - water tank rocks, see my picture below.

    I installed tank bolts 3 properly, not to brake the ceramic, but the tank would rock forward and back each time I touch the handle to flush the toilet. This is because there are two gaps 1 and 2 between tank and bowl.

    I just placed elastic into gap 2 as a temporary fix, as I do not know if this Toto Drake II design problem or just my toilet has such defect.

    PA264599sm.jpg
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  7. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    New York, NY
    The key is it has to be level. Mine just lightly touch all the way around, and they don't rock at all. Rock solid.
  8. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,362
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    It is not a design problem, and it's not likely to be a defect. When you tighten the nuts, you should alternate from one to another. Watch the space so you can keep the tank coming together with the bowl evenly. The three points on the tank and three on the bowl should either touch or have the space of a playing card between them. As WJ stated, the key is level. Mine also touches lightly on the three points. In your photo, it appears that the front was pulled way down and the back bolts were not tighten to keep pace with the front. Back off the front and bring the rear of the tank down so as to level it out. Then take like 3 or 4 turns on a nut then switch to another and do it 3 or 4, and continue this pattern until the tank reaches the points.
  9. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    It looks like two points are at the same level, but third one (at the back) is far lower then those. Sorry, I did not get it how yours tank would touch 3 points...
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,146
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I would remove the water, loosen the bolts and try to re-center the tank. You should be able to pull it downward more evenly.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  11. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Have a look at the Toto installation instructions. I'll give you a link if you need it. It shows how the thing is supposed to touch at 3 places. It's two places in the front (left and right) and one place in the back (so...front to back). It's a way of making sure the tank is level. What Terry says is of course the answer.
  12. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    Thank you wjcandee, I have found it here - http://www.totousa.com/Portals/0/ProductDownloads/0GU048Z_TOILET_IM.pdf

    "NOTE: Three Points of Contact:
    The toilet bowl has three points of contact, which will actually contact the bottom of the toilet tank when properly installed. The location of these points can be seen on the bowl at the tank receiving area. The three points are front left (1), front right (2), and back center (3). Recall these three points during the Toilet Tank installation."


    I will try to re-install water tank today...
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  13. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    New York, NY
    My pleasure! Good luck!
  14. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    I am totally convinced that it is manufacturing defect. I removed tank completely and was trying to re-install it and water is leveled, you could see it from the picture below, but third point at the back still would not touch the tank.
    PB064602sm.JPG
  15. piezomot

    piezomot New Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Ontario
    Here is another picture I made, you can see the water level better here. This back point as it could be seen on my first picture is lower then two front points! PB064603sm.JPG
  16. LordManDude

    LordManDude New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Roseville, CA
    I am having the same issue right now. Without the rubber ring, the tank sits perfectly on all three points. When I put the ring on, the gap between the tank and toilet bowl is about 3/4"

    When I snugged it down, I was able to get it within a hair, but honestly I was paranoid I was going to crack one or the other. Something seems off. I know we shouldn't have to be tightening these down this tight.

    See my pics:
    No ring.. it sits flush

    IMG_1276.jpg

    Here's where the ring sits and the height it absorbs

    IMG_1278.JPG

    What I assume is the ring, correctly attached to the fixture

    IMG_1279.JPG

    This is the height of the tank, just sitting on the bowl. Is this really the height it's supposed to be?

    IMG_1280.JPG

    piezomot, are your issues similar?

    Attached Files:

  17. stephenk

    stephenk New Member

    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Plains
    I just installed my Drake II yesterday. I've read this concern a bunch of times on this website, and of course I had it on my first Toto toilet. There are quite a few posts here where people claim the tank doesn't need to touch the bowl, but the manual is very clear that the tank does need to touch the bowl on the three contact points.

    I was in the same boat as you. I ended up using a small plastic shim on the back to fill the space, so it's now rock solid. I may try to re-set the tank, but at the moment I didn't have enough time to keep messing with it.

    EDIT - I had a little time today and took another crack at it. It took a couple tries, but I was able to get the tank to touch on all three points without really cranking down on the bolts. Repositioning the tank did it.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  18. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,146
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    We install hundreds of them, and we never shim the tank to bowl.
    And what can I say, we're like perfect!
  19. LordManDude

    LordManDude New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Roseville, CA
    Well, so far, all is good. I just went slow, and evenly tightened the nuts. It's flush now, and all three are touching, but I think just maybe there could be a little more room here from Toto.

    Terry, I read these posts before starting, and I thank you for all the quick replys to this community. I have been a car nut for years, and have spent hours and hours on car forums. When I looked at this toilet forum, there are over 1000 other people viewing this at the same time. Wow!!! Good thing you have going here.
  20. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Good Job, Duke!

    I know it's a little unnerving the first time, but once you see how you can get it nice and tight and straight and solid, just by taking it easy, holding it vertical, and tightening slowly, you'll know how to do it for yourself and family and friends in the future!

    It's funny, some folks don't believe they can crack the porcelain and that we're just being paranoid (wrong), and some believe that something must be wrong with the product because they're afraid to tighten it a little more to get it right (also wrong). There sure is a little touch involved, but once you get it right, it's pretty easy to see how to do it right every time after that.

    And I have to say there's a real sense of accomplishment (at least for me) after a couple of efforts get it just right. I actually rehabbed a 1950s toilet a few months ago with the Korky complete kit, which includes a big thick rubber sponge gasket for the flush valve nut. It took a while to get it just right, but once I did, the thing was rock-solid. I was kind of proud because the professional who had installed it over 50 years ago had built a little plaster of paris base for the tank in order to produce the same no-wobble result, and mine was straighter, with no plaster or shims, just by doing it right. Felt good.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
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