How much trouble am I in? This may make your eyes bleed.

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by Matt Helm, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    In the very near future, I need to put a utility sink and washer in this space.

    Obviously, a new water heater also.

    My initial thoughts involved a bulldozer. I can't imagine what the previous owners thought they were doing. :mad:

    So, here goes:

    1. Regarding the drain: Ok to attach the washer drain and vent to the wall using clamps and Tapcons?

    2. There is an existing vent stack on the other side of the house. It is inaccessible from here and I will need to run a new vent through the roof here. Probably between the water heater and the washer.

    3. Regarding water supply: I have to re-pipe the entire house. I am planning on using Pex with Uponor expansion fittings unless someone talks me into Viega. However, there is no way to shield the Pex from UV in this room. I realize that I could put insulation on it - however, this is also the obvious location for the manifold. That is a lot of tubing to protect from UV. How about constructing a cabinet for the manifold that abuts the ceiling? I would still have to insulate (or run in conduit) the Pex going to the washer and sink.

    I have more questions, but that is enough for now. We don't close on the property for another week, so I can't start cleaning the crap out of it yet.


    helm_2.jpg

    helm_1.jpg
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2011
  2. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Owww! My Eyes!
    What has been seen cannot be unseen!

    1st thing do not have the water turned on until that PVC Supply has been fixed.
    That is a disaster waiting to happen.
    Many places PVC isn't even allowed inside the foundation.

    The washer standpipe looks more like a drain without a trap and vent. After that has been properly plumbed yes you can secure it with clamps and tapcons.

    Your venting plans sound on target as well as your uV protection plans for the PEX.
  3. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    Scary, isn't it?

    A few other things I should have mentioned:

    1. There is no code inspection or enforcement here. I can get as crazy (but not retarded) as I want to.

    2. The current water supply is from a well.

    3. This is actually a walk-out basement that never had the ground floor built on top. It looks like the owner/builder intended to, ran out of money, and built a roof on it instead. Ground level is just about 3" below that window. We will build the ground floor sometime next year.

    4. Since it was supposed to be a basement, the builder made no provisions for any plumbing in the slab. Feast your eyes on this:

    helm_3.jpg
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2011
  4. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,246
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    In MO, it is apparently common for the washer standpipe to have a trap below the floor and no vent.
    It is expressly allowed in the St. Louis Plumbing code for a below grade laundry.
  5. Basement_Lurker

    Basement_Lurker One who lurks

    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    A great example of how code is just a minimum standard for how things can be done; often there are much better ways to install something. I always get a kick out of it when I hear tradesmen defending their horrible workmanship with "my work is done to code" and "I build to industry standard."
  6. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    I was thinking of something like this for DWV:


    EDIT:

    Diagram deleted. I really need some sleep! :)
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  7. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

    Messages:
    1,172
    Location:
    Canada
    That's a really odd way of going about it. I'm not even sure how the "vent" on the utility sink side is supposed to work...

    Why not use a santee at each trap and tie the vents together at ceiling height?

    And if you plan on leaving the work exposed, forget using pex and just use copper...
  8. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    :rolleyes: :eek: :D

    PLEASE ignore that drain and vent diagram. I will make another version after I have had some sleep.

    The drain was supposed to be between the two vents.

    That would be hilarious if it wasn't quite so embarrassing!
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    drain

    "Light" is NOT UV, so unless you run your PEX in front of the window, the uv rays, which only go in straight lines will NOT affect the tubing. As mentioned, the PVC piping is a bad thing to have inside your house, fortunately, you have a steel pipe coming out of the ground, at least it is fortunate until it rusts. We do not have enough information to tell you HOW to pipe the sink and washer, but it can be done. As my dad used to say, "ANYTHING is possible if you have enough time and money."
  10. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    All the PVC will be coming out - probably this Saturday (assuming we close on schedule).

    I'm not sure that is steel coming out of the ground - it may be dirty PVC. I will verify this weekend. I have to dig the other side of that wall out to put in a French Drain. When I do, I will also replace the service into the house - probably with PE.


    I tell people that exact same thing a couple times a week. :cool:
  11. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    What I am trying to avoid is:

    1. Running the sink vent in front of the window.
    2. Running the sink vent between the back edge of the sink and the wall (as this will make the sink stand off from the wall a couple of inches).

    Utility1c.jpg
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  12. jastori

    jastori New Member

    Messages:
    118
    Location:
    Illinois
    You may want to have others review the following (I am not a licensed plumber). However, I believe the following would meet all requirements:

    Run the vertical vent / drain stack for the utility sink and washer either to the right or left of the window. The sink drain can run horizontally after the trap (with pitch) from the position centered under the window to the vertical vent/drain stack on the side of the window. I believe the rule is that a 2" drain can run 4 feet horizontally before tying into the vertical stack.

    The washer standpipe (with its own trap) should tie into the vertical vent / drain stack at the same height (same rule for the horizontal run out of the trap).

    One of the key ideas is that you don't want to run the vent horizontally anywhere that it could back up with water.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  13. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO


    More like this?:

    Utility1d.jpg
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
  14. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,246
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    Have you confirmed that there is no trap under floor on the existing standpipe? This should be your first priority, as if you may need to break concrete to remove the trap. If that is the case, you can just move the drain over a couple of feet and it will solve the issue of the vent coming up behind the sink.

    Looking to the future, if you ever intend to finish the room (frame the wall for drywall), then your sink would be up against the new wall and the plumbing will be inside of the wall and you wouldn't need to move it over.
  15. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

    Messages:
    1,172
    Location:
    Canada
    I don't like either of those pictures you posted...

    Why the 2 90s rather than having the trap arm come out perpendicular to the block wall for the sink?
    Please don't use a cross-tee, you're better off tying into the the vertical line at two points.
    Why not use a santee at each trap and vent the fixture right there, then you don't need to worry about trap arm length limitations (not sure what is allowed for you)... Tie the vents together at the ceiling before going up to the roof.
  16. Basement_Lurker

    Basement_Lurker One who lurks

    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    Having your water heater and exposed plumbing in an un-insulated space is kind of silly. I vote you should tear out all of that mess and hire a carpenter to frame out that utility room. You can then run your plumbing properly and protect it from the cold with insulation against that cinder block.
  17. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    I have not verified that, but will try to soon. I would be really surprised if there is a trap in there (judging by the quality of what I have see).


    I don't see this room ever having drywall in it. When we build the ground floor, we will probably put the real utility room on that floor. The basement will then just be game room, storage, craft room, etc.
  18. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    I am a better carpenter and electrician than I am plumber (I am not any kind of plumber though). I am not totally opposed to framing the room in, but my time is over-allocated as I also have to rewire it, relocate the front door and windows, etc.

    Something to keep in mind is that this is a walk out basement and the ground is only 4 - 6 inches below that window. Every time I go to take measurements, the temperature has been very controlled in it.
  19. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    At least save a pile of work and use an automatic vent right under that window. Easy to inspect or change, and save you a mile of pipe.
  20. Matt Helm

    Matt Helm Non-pro Polymath

    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    MO
    But... I heard that AAV's cause cancer, will kill your dog, and lead to divorce. :(


    Edited to add: It isn't just a mile of pipe. The existing stack is pretty inaccessible from here - which means making another hole in the roof.

    Sure, we are going to tear off the roof in a couple of years anyway, but I would still rather not punch anymore new holes in it than necessary.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
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