Found problem, only to now have more questions.

[Craig Cannon]

Initially, I could not understand why my Kohler toilet was leaking at the base. I have now found that the flange screws were pulling thru the sub floor due to leaking causing the wood to start rotting and therefore not allowing the toilet to stay secure and not move at all.

Long story short, I have removed the tile and the subfloor and will replace, but I have a question about the drain flange. I'm certain this toilet flange has been replaced by a previous owner (or his contractor) and what they did was cut the top of the flange off flush and then put in a 3 inch gasketed insert, dropping the opening to about 2.5 inches.

I'd like to replace the flange with a proper flange that glues to the outside of the 3 inch drain pipe, but I'm not sure how that can be done with this setup. There is only about 1.5 inches between the bottom of original piece and the top of the 90 below. That's not enough room to put in a coupling and a new flange. Is there a way to do this that I'm not seeing, or should I just stay with the insert fitting?

 

[Craig Cannon]

Ok, how do I attach pictures?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

TO attach photos, use the 'Upload a File' tab.

To remove the existing pipe from the hub below, assuming that might give you enough room to install new with a new flange, they make a couple of different special drill bits designed to ream out the pipe from the hub. One brand is called RamBit https://www.plumbingsupply.com/rambit-plastic-fitting-saver-tool.html

Assuming that will give you enough room to install a new riser and flange, choose one with a SS ring rather than painted steel or all plastic, install it on top of the finished floor, and anchor it through it into the subflooring. Code most places calls for sealing around the front of the toilet with a caulk which both anchors the toilet, and prevents crud from seeping underneath that can't be easily cleaned up.

 

[Craig Cannon]

I'm going to move the flange to on top of the tile. There was a single wax ring that I pulled up and then I tried to reuse a single ring, but I now understand that was a mistake. Since I had to end up ripping up the subfloor around the drain, I'll put it back how properly this time.

I looked at the RamBit, but unless I'm mistaken, that's to drill out a fitting that is glued inside the main fitting. I have the opposite situation.

 

[Terry]

You may have room for a coupling there by cutting off the hub flange you have.
Or if you go all the way to the 90 bend, that would be using a RamBit.
There are all sorts of closet flanges. Some are hub, some are spigot, and some even glue inside of pipe.

 

[Reach4]

What was the problem with what you had in the picture with that repair ring in it? It sat too low below the toilet?

Is the OD of that tail on the existing closet flange about 4.0 inches? That would be the case if that was a 3x4 closet flange. If so, you may be able to glue a 4 inch pvc pipe over that after removing the bowl.

I am thinking that a DANCO Model 10672X is Hydroseat may fit your needs. Read up on it. You put a normal wax ring under it. I used to think you put another ring on top, but I see they are planning that you just put the toilet on top with no top wax. This would fit cases where the feet are going to be on top of the finished floor, and you can drill holes for the feet. You may be able to use the holes not on the feet to hold it down, but I am not sure.

I looked at the RamBit, but unless I'm mistaken, that's to drill out a fitting that is glued inside the main fitting. I have the opposite situation.

Pipe Parana is opposite of RamBit, but is expensive.

Socket Saver is cheaper than RamBit. "Pipe Hog" is more expensive.

 

[Craig Cannon]

You may have room for a coupling there by cutting off the hub flange you have.
Or if you go all the way to the 90 bend, that would be using a RamBit.
There are all sorts of closet flanges. Some are hub, some are spigot, and some even glue inside of pipe.

Ok, that makes sense for using a RamBit. Little expensive for what would most likely be a one-time use item, but at least I know I have that option now. Thanks!

 

[Craig Cannon]

What was the problem with what you had in the picture with that repair ring in it? It sat too low below the toilet?

Is the OD of that tail on the existing closet flange about 4.0 inches? That would be the case if that was a 3x4 closet flange. If so, you may be able to glue a 4 inch pvc pipe over that after removing the bowl.

The issue was the toilet bolts never got very tight and I could still move it. I pulled the toilet and the flange was pulling up out of the sub floor as the wood was not holding the screws. I was able to easily poke a hole thru the 7/8" subfloor with a screwdriver, so I knew it had to be replaced. The flange itself is fine, other than it's a 3" insert instead of a 4" insert fitting.

I'm thinking I can cut it off right where the 3" pipe goes into the flange fitting. That will leave 1.5" and the 3" coupling I saw has 1.5" on each side, so that should work. Agree?

Also, what is the proper height if the stub up pipe? Should it be flush with the finished floor height?

 

[Reach4]

As for the OD, I cant really measure it as is. It's going to be whatever the OD is on a fitting that goes over a 3" pipe.

If that is the tail of a 3x4 closet flange, that would not be the same OD size as a 3 inch coupling. If you wanted to measure that, you could measure the circumference and divide by pi. 12.57 inches around would translate to 4.0 inches diameter.

You might be able to use a shielded coupling to extend that with a 4 inch pipe.

But you may not have enough vertical distance. The same possibility exists for the section of 3 inch pipe.

That is more likely to fit. https://www.fernco.com/dimensional-drawings/3000-33 Looks like you would only need about 1.1 inches of pipe to grab onto, and about 1.6 inches to fully seat a glued coupling.

 

[Craig Cannon]

If that is the tail of a 3x4 closet flange, that would not be the same OD size as a 3 inch coupling. If you wanted to measure that, you could measure the circumference and divide by pi. 12.57 inches around would translate to 4.0 inches diameter.

You might be able to use a shielded coupling to extend that with a 4 inch pipe.
But you may not have enough vertical distance. The same possibility exists for the section of 3 inch pipe. That is more likely to fit. https://www.fernco.com/dimensional-drawings/3000-33 Looks like you would only need about 1.1 inches of pipe to grab onto, and about 1.6 inches to fully seat a glued coupling.

Thanks for the help!

Yeah, I'm thinking a 3" vertical pipe is what I will use. I'll cut it off and then measure exactly what I have left and decide if I can use a glue coupling or a Proflex coupling. They have them in stock at local HD, so easy to get. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fernco-...ERCH=REC-_-pipsem-_-100372285-_-100372287-_-N

And do I cut the top of the 3" vertical pipe even with the finished floor height, or just below?

 

[Reach4]

The coupler would have the advantage that you could change out the pipe if you mess up gluing or you want to make some later change. A later change is unlikely. Messing up gluing is less improbable.

And do I cut the top of the 3" vertical pipe even with the finished floor height, or just below?

It depends on the flange that you select.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/JONES-STEPHENS-Quickset-3-in-x-2-in-Cast-Iron-Closet-Flange-C40-320/100168417 looks good to me. Compression.

If an offset 2 inches in any direction would be good, there are some good glued outside offset flanges with a stainless steel ring to consider.

 

[Craig Cannon]

This is the flange I was going to go with because its in stock and has the SS ring.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-F...Cap-and-Stainless-Steel-Ring-435922/305248440

 

[Reach4]

This is the flange I was going to go with because its in stock and has the SS ring.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-F...Cap-and-Stainless-Steel-Ring-435922/305248440

That will be good. With a glued flange, I would give preference to the shielded coupler.

 

[Craig Cannon]

That will be good. With a glued flange, I would give preference to the shielded coupler.

]I was looking at putting the coupler on the small section of 3" pipe that is untouched and bringing new 3" pipe to the floor level. Then the flange would glue to the new pipe.

Is that what you are rereferring to? If so, why do you think the shielded coupler is better?

 

[Reach4]

I was looking at putting the coupler on the small section of 3" pipe that is untouched and bringing new 3" pipe to the floor level. Then the flange would glue to the new pipe.

So how high will you cut the pipe to? Is having that pipe cut flush with the finished floor the right height? Oh, wait. They don't see fit to tell you that.

Is that what you are rereferring to? If so, why do you think the shielded coupler is better?

I figure the flange could break some day, or I want to change out the flooring, or repair the flooring, or that I might mess up the gluing. With a shielded coupler, I could dig down, and put in a fresh piece of 3 inch pipe.

 

[Jadnashua]

Each toilet flange will have its own required riser height position...IOW, there is no 'standard' you can cut the pipe off relative to the floor. If you happen to be using a type of flange that does not have an internal stop (generally, only see that on 4" ones), you can leave the pipe long, slide on the flange, then cut the pipe off flush later since on some, there is no stop, the pipe will just slide through the whole thing.

Since you cannot reliably dry fit pvc pipe into hubs, you need to carefully measure from the bottom of the hub to the bottom of the hub below to figure out the required pipe length.

PVC hubs are tapered...the pipe is straight...they don't fit together until you add the cement which melts the plastic, and the wedge taper helps to keep everything centered properly. As a result of that taper, you need to hold the two together until most of the solvent has evaporated, or the taper will push the two apart, possibly ruining your day. On a toilet flange, have the pilot holes ready, and screw it down immediately, or at least with a couple of screws. You could also put some weight on it...a box of tile works.

 

[Craig Cannon]

I have the new 3" piece stubbed up to exactly 1" below finished floor. That's should be very close to the correct height without being too high. I imagine being slightly low is better than even a 1/16 too high.

I had to use the shielded coupler as the regular coupling would have been too tall. As it stands now, there is 1-15/16 from the top of the coupler to the top of the pipe. The flange connection is 1.5" to the inside ridge, so just enough room.

Anyone see anything that would cause concern before I start installing the subfloor?

 

[Jadnashua]

You could glue a longer piece into the flange, mock up the subflooring thickness, then cut the piece to length, but measuring carefully, should get you there. I would be easier if you had access from below, then you could later tighten up the connector after the whole was installed.

 

[Craig Cannon]

You could glue a longer piece into the flange, mock up the subflooring thickness, then cut the piece to length, but measuring carefully, should get you there. I would be easier if you had access from below, then you could later tighten up the connector after the whole was installed.

That makes sense, but I don't have access underneath without tearing into the ceiling below.

However, I guess I can lay the new sub floor down, then lay the old tile down (I was able to remove it in whole pieces with the backer board still attached), to get a better measurement at true finished height. That would be easy actually.