Flex PVC to replace Galvenized 1 1/4 pipe?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Dunner, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. Dunner

    Dunner New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Celina, Tx
    Hey guys i have a question for you. I have posted in the recent past about my water quality (sucks 3,600 TDS!).

    I am thinking about spending ~$11,000 on a whole house RO system to get good drinking water and hopefully extend the life on my appliances. (just had to replace washer after only 5 years).

    WE currently bring in bottled water for drinking so this will help with my Return on Investment.

    I just replaced my pressure tank and pressure switch as well as a small 4 Inch piece of Galvanized at the top pf the well head that had a pin hole in it.
    This pin hole is what concerns me. With the corrosive nature of my water I am concerned about the longevity of the galvanized. I know a few people that are in the same aquifer that have had to replace their galvanized pipe due to pin holes.

    My well is drilled to 500 ft with a 4 inch ID Casing with 60 foot of screen and the pump is set at 440 feet attached to 1 1/4 galvanized pipe in 20 ft sections.

    The real question is, can i go with some type of flex PVC or schedule 80 1 1/4 PVC at this depth? I am not planning to replace it until it has a problem but would like to start thinking about slowly buying materials ahead of time and not have to deal with the corrosion again..

    Also I have access to a track hoe and was wondering if that could be used to pull the existing 440 ft of Galvanized?

    Additionally would it help to attach a cable or rope to the pump and attach every 10 -20 feet to the Flex PVC and then at the top of the well to help hold the weight or am i way off base?

    Thanks,
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  2. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    440’ of 1 ¼” galv full of water is a man killer by hand, even with a track hoe. But it could be done. A pump hoist truck would be much safer for you and the well. If you drop something, it can be dangerous to you and destroy the well at the same time.

    I think you could go back with Sch 120 PVC, but I would check the specs for the depth.
  3. Dunner

    Dunner New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Celina, Tx
    Thanks Valveman.

    I have researched a bit more and found this equation for the PSI recommendation for the pipe.

    (Pumping Level Depth X .433) + (switch setting) = Working Pressure
    (Pumping level + water level in casing with Pump running)

    So in my case as long as the Pumping Level is higher than 330 ft and Pressure setting at 60 PSI i should be able to go with 1 1/4 Polyethylene flexible Well Pipe rated at 200 PSI correct? ( I am trying to find out from my well driller what the pumping level is)

    I was able to find the following for standard PVC (stick)
    Schedule 40 = 370 PSI
    Schedule 80 + 520 PSI
    Schedule 120 + 600 PSI

    I realize you folks have a shit ton of experience so what would you recommend?
    I would rather go with the 1 1/4 Polyethylene flexible Well Pipe if possible to reduce the future cost of pulling again if the motor were to go south.

    Thoughts?

    Also would the cable/rope idea help if the water column dropped do to drought?

    Thanks,
  4. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Your worst case pumping level is 440’, which is 190 PSI. Add to that the 60 PSI at pump shut off and you have 250 PSI working pressure on the pipe. 200 PSI poly might handle that, but it would have a lot of stretch. Makes it hard to keep the wire in place. Sch 80 pipe is rated for 520 PSI, but when you thread it and cut out half the meat, it reduces the pressure rating by 50%, which would make it 260 PSI.

    It is not just the pressure rating but also the weight being held. So the horsepower of the pump and size of wire also come into play.

    Also, a cable or a rope is just something that can break off or get dropped and mess up a perfectly good well. Some people use them, but if your pipe is good, you don’t need a rope.
  5. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    854
    Location:
    ct
    Forget the poly pipe, it is a bitch to handle and when most guys pull it, it lays in the dirt and dog crap on the ground which then contaminates the well.

    Use sch 80 or sch 120 PVC and be done with it.

    If you have to use a rope to hold the weight, you should have used better pipe.
  6. Dunner

    Dunner New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Celina, Tx
    Ok thanks Valve man and craigpump.

    It sounds like the Schedule 80 PVC is the route to go. I agree that after doing some further research pulling 440 ft of the poly would be tough to do without laying it on the ground.

    Can either of you give me a rough order of magnitude on the weight i would be have to lift to pull the 440 ft of 1-1/4 galvanized and pump?

    Is there a rough order of magnitude estimate on how much water weight is in the pipe say on a 20 ft section of 1-1/4 pipe?

    The reason i ask is my father in-law was recently quoted over $5,000 to pull his pump (he is at 1000 ft) and if I can do it with a track hoe it would save me/him some much needed cash.

    (his is already toast and just preparing for mine)

    Thanks
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  7. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller New Member

    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    You should stay away from the track hoe idea...you really need to be able to lift absolutely vertically to do it safe, any pulling crooked with the track hoe can break a coupling pretty easily...then the job will really set you back to pay someone to fish it out. So, if you are intent on doing it yourself, you should rent a crane....or rent a crane with operator and buy the right tools. It's really a pro's job, but $5000 is might be a little high....unless that includes absolutely everything...new pump, motor, pipe, wire and a good warranty. I just ran 900' of 1.25" steel pipe to grout a well in 1.5 hours....3 guys.....so it doesn't take that long if you know what you're doing. You can look up pipe weights online, but 1.25" pipe WITH water probably weighs about 2.5 - 3 lbs per ft...just a rough guess.

    I agree with valveman and Craig.....threaded PVC is the right answer for your 440'....I would put in sch 120 1.25".
  8. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    854
    Location:
    ct
    1.25" galvanized is about 2.25 lbs a foot so 440' is close to 1000 lbs plus the weight of the water, pump and wire.

    You definitely want a hoist or crane to lift the pipe, like VA said if the pipe isn't pulled absolutely straight it could break at the couplings. Then is gets REAL expensive.
  9. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    1 1/4" steel, full of water weighs 2.93# per foot, plus the wire and pump. That is 1290# for the pipe, so with wire and pump it will be well over 1500#. Pulling straight up is the key. You might be able to use the track hoe for the mast, and attach an electric wench to pull straight up and back down. If you get about half of it out and drop the rest, it will corkscrew in the well like a spring. Very hard and expensive to fish out.
  10. Dunner

    Dunner New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Celina, Tx
    Gentleman, many thanks for your insight.

    Now I tend to agree that 1,500 pounds should be done with proper equipment.

    Last question. Will a well service pulling the well charge more if they drop the pipe and pump? Or am I assuming that risk anyways?

    If I have to assume the risk anyways when the time comes I might rent an appropriate size crane buy a well pipe clamping tool to clamp on the pipe below each collar as I pull it. ( I found a well pipe clamping tool online but would have to look up again. EDIT: I found it ar Dean Bennett's site it's called a Pipe Elevator. also saw a recommendation to make your own out of a piece of thick flat steel by notching the steel to fit snugly around the 1-1/4 pipe and slide it between the well casing and under the collar so that the collar rest on the steel to disconnect the pipe above. Think I like the clamp idea better.)

    Don't think I would risk the weight on in-laws 1,000 ft well. You know how that would work "my dumb ass son in-law ruined my well" .

    I know if I do it myself I am assuming some risk to save thousands so it may be worth it. Of course if financial situation is different at the time it needs to be done I may hire a well service. Only so much money to go around theses days.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  11. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    854
    Location:
    ct
    Collars? I haven't heard that since my days in the oilfield!

    I would stay away from notching a piece of flat plate, if you come across a thin coupling you could lose everything down the hole. I would spend $200.00 on a heavy duty foot jack, the kind with angle iron side rails 'cause know it won't blow apart from the weight.
  12. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller New Member

    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Well service company should not charge more if THEY drop anything.....they shoud only charge you to fish if the drop pipe is so degraded it breaks during normal, careful handling. We always use bail elevators, and a kwik clamp...never had a failure. You'd be fine to buy a pair of the red elevators with chains. They would serve th purpose of lifting, and you wouldn't have to buy a seperate clamp.
  13. Dunner

    Dunner New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Celina, Tx
    Thanks everyone.

    My well appears not have a pitiless adapter as the drop pipe comes up through the top of the well cap. What holds the drop pipe weight on this type of setup?

    Hoe would you go about preparing to pull it?

    Thanks, Jim
  14. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    854
    Location:
    ct
    Do you have pics?
  15. Dunner

    Dunner New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Celina, Tx
    Here is a picture of the well head.
    Well Head.jpg
  16. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller New Member

    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    A well seal (google if you don't know what it is), is holding the weight....the gal. Tee is sitting on the well seal in the picure....you would need to break the union in the vertical, and lift straight on the Tee.....you can hook a strap around the 90, but you won't be pulling exactly straight....I would take the 90 and close nipple out, screw in a longer nipple on top of the tee to handle the elevator, and pull straight....also order yourself a new seal.
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