Finishing up a Kerdi shower questions

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JohnfrWhipple

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Mike - sealing the tile is tricky. Using a tiny wire brush (brass) is often the only way to remove this grout from the tile. It needs to be done while grouting and at the tooling and clean up stage.


Yet another reason why a tile mock up board is so important.

When sealing floor tile it's so important not to get the sealer on the tile's edges. This creates a bond breaker and can I have seen help efflorescence weep up through the setting material along the sealed tile edges.

So much can wrong with tile, grout and sealing. Your bathroom shower looks awesome - you should be very proud of your hard work.

Don't sweat the blank stares - often the men answering the question there rely on manufactures recommendations. The real pro's there rarely help out on the general discussions. Lame wanna be posters seem to control the info mostly. Just look at the post counts of some of these ya-who's.
 

MikeQ

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On your next project use a material specifiic pre seal on your porous or pitted tile before grouting being extra careful not to drip it all over the sides of each tile, sealing only on top! Not so easy with those mini mosaics!

I had asked about this issue on the John Bridge Tile Forum but, as usual, was greeted with blank stares. I do not believe a normal tile/grout sealer would have prevented the grout from embedding in the stone pits (some of the voids are like miniature jagged "caves" with openings smaller than the insides).

But had you been doing this for a homeowner??? And they didnt like it! You be learning the hard way!!!!!


Fortunately, I am the homeowner and I'm a reasonable person. But I know what you mean!

In the end I decided to prioritize getting a consistently good bond in the grout joints over aesthetic issues of residual grout residue. If perfect aesthetics was a higher priority, I would use masking tape over the entire floor and tediously cut out every grout joint with a utility knife. Alternatively, I could have used a mosaic product without surface pits. But I'm happy with the result.
 

MikeQ

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Mike that looks great ! Good work. Now please jump to the pricing thread and share some total numbers with us....? Ballpark it for curious homeowners......

I did share ballpark numbers there, around $6K material cost plus a lot of hours.

The tile cost was very high because I could only approximate the colors I envisioned by ordering tiles glazed to order, full boxes only. So I have a lot of the 3x3 colored tiles remaining.

Time spent was excessive due to inexperience and the desire to fully research every detail before proceeding. Contributing to the time/labor was the very precise planning required due to very tight clearances and the fact that the floor and walls did not start out square and level. The extensive curbing detailing (top and bottom) added more than expected to the imaginary time sheet. Also, I thought the tempered glass wall would reduce labor (vs. framing/tiling) but I think it was no easier. A simple, minimalistic, ultra modern shower would have been much quicker.
 

MikeQ

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I',m with you there Roberto.

I have never seen a bi-fold door look so good. Nice to know there is a stylish option for these. My glass guy in 12 plus years has never mentioned one to me. The only one I saw was a cheese ball framed version.

For future reference, the bi-fold added considerable cost/installation time compared to a swinging door. Typically, they are installed to open inwards in order to eliminate door drippage on the floor, post-shower. I obviously didn't have room to do that but my floor has a membrane extending up the baseboards so I wasn't too concerned with that.

My fingers are crossed because of the thin-set and grout choice on this project. I hope Mike's grout holds up better than my kitchen grout.

Mike will you send us a few follow up pictures down the road. Like 3 months. 12 months. 24 months......

Certainly. I'm confident the performance of the Bostik Dimension urethane grout on the shower floor will outperform traditional cement based grout. It's rated water absorption is <1% and it has Microbial protection built in. Also, the joints are less than 1/8" wide but are a full 5/8" deep and fully packed. Because I didn't pre-seal the mosaics or use anything but a slightly damp sponge during clean-up, there should be a good bond.

What is your concern with the Ditraset thinset?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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....What is your concern with the Ditraset thinset?

Effloresence

I stopped using non-modified setting materials for my shower floors years ago. Do many turn white. I chaulk it up to low end thin-set.

A few of the premium setting materials do not contribute to efflorescence at all. Printed right on the bag.

Sadly one supplier does not allow this with their products. So - change suppliers is my motto.
 

Jadnashua

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This TCNA document describes what efflorescence is, what causes it, and how to deal with it if it occurs. Note, that in a properly installed surface membrane over a proper slope (no birdbaths or flat areas), and the fact that there's very little mortar there, and most all grouts are modified and typically sealed...in a well built shower, this is usually a non issue - it can become much more of an issue over a typical liner and thick mudbed. Also, the purity of the cement and how well the sands and fillers that are used were washed can make a big difference. One reason why white thinset is more expensive, is that the materials must be purer, which helps in the whole situation (iron and magnesium are the primary things that make the cement grey - removing them gives you what is called white mortar and also removes some of the salts). https://www.tcnatile.com/faqs/32-white-residue-on-grout.html

There must be enough water going through the cement based products to dissolve the salts that produce efflorescence, and in a surface membrane, with proper slope, modified grout, and sealer...it becomes mostly a non-issue. But, keep in mind, the TCNA studies have shown 75% of the tiled showers are not done correctly, so the fact that it rarely happens to any degree in a properly done one is somewhat masked - the majority in this is not a good example.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Jim - have you ever spoken with Schluter's Head Tech. You most know him. The man's name is Dale Kempster.

Next time your at work ask him what he told me about Effloresence. In regards to what he and the TCNA or what ever group he referenced spends most of their time looking into. What type of common problem does Dale have to deal with.

I'll give you a clue.

The first and last letter of the word has an "E".

When you have spoken directly too him. Then get back to us. Tell every one that John has some legitimate concerns and then go back to selling Kerdi and Ditra for your office.
 

MikeQ

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Jim - have you ever spoken with Schluter's Head Tech. You most know him. The man's name is Dale Kempster.

Next time your at work ask him what he told me about Effloresence. In regards to what he and the TCNA or what ever group he referenced spends most of their time looking into. What type of common problem does Dale have to deal with.

I'll give you a clue.

The first and last letter of the word has an "E".

When you have spoken directly too him. Then get back to us. Tell every one that John has some legitimate concerns and then go back to selling Kerdi and Ditra for your office.

Looks like I really screwed up royally. I had no idea this was so common!

Sad. All that hard work down the drain. :(
 

Jadnashua

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Looks like I really screwed up royally. I had no idea this was so common!

Sad. All that hard work down the drain. :(
If it happens to you, or even if it doesn't, report back in a year or so. This is much more common over a full mudbed and a conventional clamping ring drain and liner. Most grout used is modified, and that limits any salt migration. A surface membrane with a properly installed thinset, doesn't have much salt to dissolve (the reason it is called thinset method). A premium mortar with well-washed sands and fillers, has limited salts.

Don't lose sleep over this.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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...Sad. All that hard work down the drain.....

You mentioned earlier you had nice clean tile edges. Your grout might save you...

But if the grout turns white. And your translucent grout looks creamy white. And you have a powdery substance on the surface of the tile edges then it might just be effloresces.

Over the years I have asked why this was happening on my Kerdi showers. I was told things like "You might have over watered the grout" "You might have use expired grout" "Your sponge was to wet" - I've been told a lot of crap over the years.

I wish I had been told "Use a better setting material" "Use a better grout" - but at the time manufacture's printed instructions (which by the way have to be on site at all times) conflicted with this.

Kerdi - Ditra : Never Again
 

MikeQ

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OK, I'm reporting back after over 1 1/2 years of happy, steamy showering.

I really like the thermostatic shower valve. I have it adjusted so the water is at my preferred temperature (about 112F) when the temperature controller is up against the high temp safety stop. I can still go hotter by pressing the over-ride button and turning further CCW. I like how little water I waste. With most showers I have to wait for the temp to stabilize and do a couple of temperature adjustments before I step in (particularly in a small shower where you cannot step away from the spray). Even then the temperature will slowly drift as the plumbing comes up to temperature. With the thermostatic valve, I just turn the water on. The valve flows water only from the hot supply until the supply water is warm enough then it starts to bleed increasing amounts of cold water in to maintain the temp. This means I can step in the shower as soon as it's warm enough to not shock me (about 10 seconds) without worry of getting scalded or being shocked by cold water. It stabilizes very quickly (about 5 more seconds to set temperature) without any detectable "hunting". It's wonderful!

The small amount of venting (and a good fan immediately outside the shower door) keeps the bathroom mirror entirely fog-free no matter how cold the bathroom is and how hot and how long the shower is. Using nice hot water, this shower turns into a bona-fide steam shower in about 60 seconds! I love it! I have a 1.5 GPM showerhead from here:

http://www.highsierrashowerheads.com/

I can highly recommend their showerheads! My only complaint is both of the heads I purchased test out at 1.75 gpm instead of the 1.5 gpm rating. This provides a very "wet" shower because the heads do not aerate the water (although they look just like the old school mini-aerators seen in school locker rooms and the like). But don't be fooled! These showerheads are soft and wet feeling, not the pins/needles/air of your youth! This makes your shower water feel warmer because it's not being mixed with cooler air. There is also the 2.5 GPM Kohler shower wand with 7 selectable spray patterns but I prefer the High Sierra to any of the 7 higher flow shower spray patterns. So I only use the wand when I need a wand. The shower valve will switch seamlessly between the two and once the cool water has been cleared from the wand hose, there is no temperature shock when switching back/forth.

I don't have any new photos but I can confirm a careful inspection of the shower floor reveals not even a hint of efflorescence. I think this urethane grout is really dense! I don't expect to see any in the coming years either, When I set the WarmWire in the shower floor I installed it at 1.5X the density of the rest of the bathroom. I did this to counteract the extra thermal mass of the sand bed. Since the radiant heat is generally turned on when I'm showering I think it drives the moisture away from the thinset.

I'm loving my new mini "spa" which is what it feels like every time I warm my cold stiff bones with a nice, hot, steamy shower. Thanks to all the help and support I received from the experts here (and no thanks to the blank stares I would get at the bridge forum). I was kicked off for my political beliefs before I was 25% done. I think they are mostly a bunch of wacko, right wing conservatives that couldn't identify the truth if it bit them in the ass. You have a right to air your beliefs (as long as you don't point out the misinformation they try to pass off as common sense). But I'm sure the project wouldn't have been as successful if I didn't find this place so it's the best thing that could have happened to me. And they can go back to believing we have the anti-Christ for a President and he's trying to bring our country down and take away their guns.... Oh yeah, and, if you elect the Muslim alien, gas is going to at least $6/gallon! Dontchya know?
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, depending on your water pressure, you can get more or less water from the showerhead. It is rated at, I think, 60psi inlet pressure.

As long as you do not go less than the minimum wire spacing for the heating cables, you should be okay, but if not, you could shorten their life with them closer. May not be an issue if you don't run it for long.

Political and religious beliefs in a DIY'er forum should not mix with project advice, and is not tolerated in many forums.
 

MikeQ

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FWIW, depending on your water pressure, you can get more or less water from the showerhead. It is rated at, I think, 60psi inlet pressure.

As long as you do not go less than the minimum wire spacing for the heating cables, you should be okay, but if not, you could shorten their life with them closer. May not be an issue if you don't run it for long.

Political and religious beliefs in a DIY'er forum should not mix with project advice, and is not tolerated in many forums.

The political talk wasn't in the DIY forum. It was in the Sandbox forum designed for such things. Those expressing conservative views were encouraged, not banned.

The shower floor still does not reach as high of a temperature as the rest of the bathroom floor even after extended heating. The thicker sand bed has more capacity to transfer heat.
 
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