Euro toilet installation

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coachv

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i have a new european style toilet (made in china) that bolts in the rear. 4" cast iron pipe with no flange. a few questions. i have read that a flange is not absolutely necessary and since my toilet bolts in the rear instead of the sides i hope that is true. i have already installed one of these toilets downstairs and i simply used wood screw closet bolts into wood subfloor and 3" fernco waxless toilet seal which snapped down into my pvc line. easy peasy.
upstairs i have new porcelain tile on top of 1.5-2" concrete. sewer pipe is recessed 3/8" from top of floor (the width of new tile). i was thinking of 4" fernco to provide secure seal. downstairs, this set up also provided some stability as the fernco goes a few inches down into the pipe and locks in. i have read some reviews that the fernco may not work as well with cast iron. more importantly, how do i get screws into the concrete for the rear holes? keep in mind that they have to have threads up. have considered construction adhesive for the toilet which i think would work but obviously becomes a problem if the toilet has to come up for servicing. i cannot return the toilet so i need some creative suggestions. any ideas?
 

JMac

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A New York bracket attached to the concrete with tapcons or similar? I don't know if such exists or if you would have to have one custom made, but it is basically a bolt attached (the size you are talking about would probably be welded) to a plate and then the place is screwed to the floor.
Here is a smaller version of what I am referring to:
0212151554.jpg
 

Jadnashua

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It might work to drill a hole where required, and then use a suitable epoxy to anchor a threaded rod where required to hold the toilet. YOu may need a diamond bit, as some tile is nearly as hard as that and laughs at typical carbide. A typical glass bit works on some tile, but glass is only in the 5 range on the Mohs hardness scale, whereas diamond is a 10 (the hardest known material) and some porcelain is up around 9.
 
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Plumbs Away

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I can't comment on securing the toilet to the floor because I've never encountered your type of situation. But regarding the Fernco and cast iron: I have used it and I had to get the Fernco started into the pipe and push it down evenly about an inch or two and then put the bowl on top and push it the rest of the way down. When I tried to attach the Fernco to the toilet bowl first, the part of the Fernco that goes into the drain pipe would buckle. So I lubed it liberally with liquid hand soap and got it started as described above. Using the Fernco with plastic drain pipe was a piece of cake because it popped right in with no resistance or problems. I hope this 2 cents worth helps.:)
 

coachv

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wow. that is some great advice. i love the new york bracket idea from jmac and thr epoxy idea from jadnashua so i am thinking about combining the two. do you guys think i could epoxy the new york bracket to the floor rather than drilling through the tile and concrete? the toilet is one piece and quite heavy so i don't think it is going anywhere. i didn't even caulk around the downstairs one because it looked so clean and nice i thought that would only ugly things up. do you think construction adhesive will do the job? i used it to attach a threshold to my concrete stoop when installing my new storm door this fall rather than drilling and it has held up fine through the bitter cold. never have had much luck drilling into concrete, probably due to inferior tools, but i'm all about finding shortcuts that work. like when i tiled on top of wall tile in this bathroom remodel.

i have read about the fernco buckling when used on cast iron before so that worries me. i wonder if that is due to the roughness of the inside of the pipe. i read one person chipped and sanded the inside of the pipe to get it smooth but i'm not loving the idea of that effort. i think it would be extremely difficult to attach the ferco to the toilet after partially inserting the fernco as it would require suspending the toilet in air with brute strength while attempting to line everything up. believe me, i am no brute and it's just me and the mrs.. i did intend a partial dry fit of the fernco. i will need a 4" fernco but toilet has a 3" horn. does this present a problem? again, trying to find an easier way, is there some kind of pvc adapter or insert to reduce the hole to 3" which would allow the fernco to pop in? i'm also looking into other waxless seal options.
 

coachv

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jmac, does the new york bracket have another common name because an internet search is coming up with nothing?
 

JMac

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jmac, does the new york bracket have another common name because an internet search is coming up with nothing?
I'm sure there is, but that is the only name I know them under (and those are for window blinds; nowhere near big enough for what you need).

What about screwing a lag bolt from the top down into the subfloor? Wouldn't be fun to remove, but easier than 'gluing' the toilet down.
 

coachv

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went to the big box store and they don't carry this new york bracket nor did the hardware guy recognize it. he did offer to fabricate one in his welding "shed" which works for me. unless anyone knows what this thing is called.
 

Jadnashua

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Most toilets don't have a huge amount of room underneath there...make sure you could get the bracket where it needs to be and still allow the toilet to sit flat without bottoming out on the toilet.

There are plates designed to hold threaded rod - used to make standoffs for things like gas pipes and drain pipes that would probably work and available at a big box store. Instead of steel threaded rod, I'd consider maybe buying a brass bolt and cutting the head off . You could put some threadlock compound on it to hold the rod in the bracket, but it's probably not necessary. http://www.homedepot.com/s/threaded%20rod%20plate?NCNI-5
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Should that plate not all ready been installed? I would think that would go in first then the tile.

Seems to me you could simply use a Hilti Wedge anchor now in replacement of that bracket. I use a 1" Dewalt Demo hammer in rotary mode to drill the holes in the concrete. I would first drill a hole in the tile with a diamond coring bit. Then switch out to the demo hammer.

The two holes with the diamond coring bit will take about 10 minutes total to drill. The two holes into the concrete about 2 minutes.

The wedge anchor should anchor a good 2" into the concrete. They look like this.

thunderstud-wedge-anchor.gif

Leave the nut on until after you install. Often when driving in the pin to lock it you mash up the threads. When you back off the nut you fix this. If you can not back the nut off this means you did not drill the hole right or deep enough.

More info on drilling holes in tile here: Cutting Holes in Tile
 

JohnfrWhipple

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1d286a29b4ba31ea0294dc1615f65dfe.jpg


I use this drill - just an older model.

Tools like this can be rented by the hour or half day.

It really will take less than 2 minutes to drill each hole for a wedge pin once the tile has been pre-drilled with a diamond coring bit.
 

coachv

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johnwhipple

that looks like the correct and professional way. if all else fails i will do that. the guy from home depot said he will charge me $5 for the whole job if you can believe that. i've invested a whopping $5 in a metal plate and some kind of endless screw that has no head. there is room under the tolet to accommodate 2-3" square plate. i see no reason construction adhesive won't provide a strong bond.
 

coachv

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jadnashua,

if this handyman bails i will try your ceiling plate idea because i see no reason that won't work. have to check that it is flat enough but i think so. i want to thank everyone for all your great solutions
 

Jadnashua

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If what you have is deck mud verses poured concrete, I'd be leery of an expanding anchor like shown. Deck mud has great compressive strength, but is lousy for things like that that can expand. What's under the cement based material? If it's a wooden subfloor, you could probably just use an anchor bolt (wood screws on one end, plain thread on the other), or, if you have access from below, maybe even a carriage bolt. Get one made of SS so it won't rust.
 

Koa

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Couldn't you use regular brass toilet flange bolts and a piece bar stock with a hole drilled in it? Epoxy should hold everything if you rough up surfaces. There should even be room to put a nut on to tighten the bar stock to the flange bolt. Even just a fender washer might be enough with epoxy depending on outside edge clearance.
 

Jadnashua

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He said it was tile over concrete.
Some people can't tell the difference between deck mud and poured concrete...poured concrete on a second story residential home is not all that common. It could even be something like gypcrete, which is sometimes used for fire code, sound suppression, and leveling.
 

hj

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I have a question. IF you are setting the toilet DOWN onto the bolts, HOW are you sliding it back to seal to the drain pipe? Doesn't the toilet have any bolt openings on the back side by the pipe outlet?
 

coachv

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sorry i haven't been here to respond due to my toddler snapping off the pin on my laptop charger. new one today and lo and behold this page pops up with new responses.

first, definitely concrete, original to the 1932 home construction. withstood several blows from a sledgehammer so i thought, "what am i doing?". let's run with the solid foundation. walls half-way up are concrete, too. really solid home. took up the old pink 4" tile on floor, self-leveling compound, then imported italian tile. just tiled on top of pink wall tile.

koa, i couldn't understand the concept of the bar stock. isn't bar stock cylindrical, like rebar?

hj, i think you may be thinking the toilet drains from the rear, as into a wall sewer drain. otherwise i would not understand your question. toilet has bottom horn (3") that will sit above the floor drain. toilet just bolts down to floor at the very rear of toilet. was hoping the fernco would add stability as it did in the downstairs installation of the same toilet. not so sure the fernco will work now as cast iron drain is pretty rough inside, even after hitiing it with a cup brush.
 
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