DWV, am I creating unnecessary work????

[RLrobinhood]

Hi all,

After a question I posted yesterday, I got to thinking about another potential issue that I "may" have. My house is a single story with basement. My sewer line failed and I have replaced it which has then cascaded into a complete remodel. Anyways, I have everything completely opened up in the basement.

The ground floor bathtub has always worked fine. No issues with draining or venting. With this being said, I don't think it is plumbed correctly. I think it should have its own vent since there is 7' of 1.5" drain pipe before the main stack.

Is my thinking correct here? If it is, what would you do and how would you correct it. In my pictures in red, I have a proposed solution, but I'm not sure if it is correct either. Or, am I just creating work at this point since it has always worked fine? Thoughts?

Again, many thanks!!!

 

[John Gayewski]

What you have isn't legal but it's done quite frequently.

If you could stay stay at 45 all of the way into the wall it'd be legal.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Breplum]

The basement shower should have its own 1-1/2" vent (for which you need to demo more concrete) and that would be able to tie in to a new upstairs vent 6" above the flood rim of the upstairs fixture, or go independently thru roof.
Upsizing the upper floor tub drain to 2" may qualify it to be a "horizontal wet vent", but won't solve the downstairs vent.
Maybe for the basement drain, just install an AAV in the shower wall with service access panel onto the hall.

 

[wwhitney]

Up.codes says MT uses the UPC, and has not adopted the plumbing portion of the IRC, and I don't see any UPC Chapter 9 amendments allowing AAVs. In some UPC states they are still automatically allowed in a limited set of circumstances via some state building department ruling or interpretation, perhaps a blanket approval of them as an engineered vent system under UPC section 912? I didn't check for that in MT.

https://up.codes/viewer/montana/upc-2018/chapter/9/vents#9

So, you have a few different violations in your photo:

1) The bathtub trap appears to be an S-trap? In that the upstream end of the 7' horizontal run is a 90 degree elbow. That would be fine if the tub trap hits a san-tee above it in the floor system, with a dry vent coming off the top (obviously would not be visible in the picture).

But you say it is not vented. So what you need to do is reconfigure the bath drain so that it stays horizontal coming out of the p-trap outlet elbow, and so that horizontal drain hits a vertical dry vent takeoff (via san-tee or upright combo, depending on whether you want the drain to run vertically or horizontally after the vent takeoff) within 42" of the 1-1/2" p-trap, and with a maximum fall over that 42" of one pipe diameter (1-1/2"). Hopefully you can route the drain under a wall that can hold a dry vent within the 42" limit. And it appears you'll either need to lower the p-trap or drill some joists (unless you can hit your vent wall by running down the joist bay).

2) Similarly the shower trap needs a dry vent, but in this case as the trap is 2", you have 60" to reach your vent (and up to 2" of fall). If the vent is going to wet vent a WC, then it needs to be a 2" vent. Hopefully there's a 2x4 wall planned you can use for your vertical dry vent.

3) On the 3" portion downstream of the shower, it looks like you have a san-tee on its back? The UPC never allows that oreientation for drainage, it's only allowed to connect vents together. So you need to use a combo. If that's a stub up for a WC, then it needs a vent, which could be a wet vent from the shower. There's also a school of thought that it's better not to connect the fixture to the drain/wet vent directly with an upright combo, but instead to route the drain alongside the WC location, connecting the closet flange to it with a closet bend pointed directly into a wye on the drain line.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[RLrobinhood]

Thanks everyone for all your help on this. I hate venting. It is very complicated. Can you look at the new pictures below and let me know your thoughts? Green is vent and red is drain. Would this work?

Also, that 3" stub up with the cardboard wrapped around it is for a toilet. I think the plumber used a SanT because the main sewer line is not deep enough to use a closet bend. But I'm not sure. Do you have any reference dimensions I can use to make this determination?

Lastly, I included a picture of the other side of this wall. For reference that may help you understand what I've got going on.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's input. Much appreciated!

 

[wwhitney]

Four problems with your drawing:

1) The bathtub vent can not go horizontal below the elevation of 6" above the bathtub flood rim.
2) Likewise, the shower vent can not go horizontal below the elevation of 6" above its flood rim.
3) The shower vent needs to come off the shower drain before another fixture drain joins it.
4) If you want the shower to wet vent the WC, then you can't have fixtures outside the downstairs bathroom join until after the WC joins.

If you provide a floor plan of the bathroom above, showing the tub whose drain you need to vent, and showing the joists for reference to the photos, we might be able to suggest a venting plan for the tub. Likewise, if you indicate where the walls (if any) are going to be in the basement bathroom, we might be able to suggest a venting plan for the basement shower.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

On the WC, what's the elevation difference between the 3" drain center line there and the top of the future finish floor?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jeff H Young]

looks like you are wet venting between the first and second floor? a santee on its back for a downstair toilet? nope wont fly the second pic looks like an unvented floor drain in a laundry room?

 

[RLrobinhood]

looks like you are wet venting between the first and second floor? a santee on its back for a downstair toilet? nope wont fly the second pic looks like an unvented floor drain in a laundry room?

Would you have any proposed solutions? As you can see, the plumber I hired didn't really help me. I just want to be sure I get it done right. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jeff H Young]

looks like everything i see has to be ripped out. first off the main got reduced down to 3 inch without a 4 inch clean out. its a lot to tell you but basicaly starting on other side of wall you need a 4 inch cleanout for the main . plumber needs to start from zero

 

[RLrobinhood]

Four problems with your drawing:

1) The bathtub vent can not go horizontal below the elevation of 6" above the bathtub flood rim.
2) Likewise, the shower vent can not go horizontal below the elevation of 6" above its flood rim.
3) The shower vent needs to come off the shower drain before another fixture drain joins it.
4) If you want the shower to wet vent the WC, then you can't have fixtures outside the downstairs bathroom join until after the WC joins.

If you provide a floor plan of the bathroom above, showing the tub whose drain you need to vent, and showing the joists for reference to the photos, we might be able to suggest a venting plan for the tub. Likewise, if you indicate where the walls (if any) are going to be in the basement bathroom, we might be able to suggest a venting plan for the basement shower.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne, you have been incredibly helpful. I can't thank you enough for your continued support. Is there a way to PM you or contact you privately?

I really appreciate everyone's responses to this. I'm incredibly frustrated the plumber didn't address and resolve these issues. But, you are helping me make this correct. So a big THANK YOU.

Attached are pictures that depict how I think you are telling me to make the DWV correct. Green is vent. Red is drain. I think this layout will resolve the vent needed for the shower and the vent needed for the ground floor bathtub.

Any thoughts on the floor drain? It is 4' from the stack.

Thanks again.

 

[Reach4]

Wayne, you have been incredibly helpful. I can't thank you enough for your continued support. Is there a way to PM you or contact you privately?

Click wwhitney under the football helmet avatar, and then click "Start a conversation".

 

[RLrobinhood]

On the WC, what's the elevation difference between the 3" drain center line there and the top of the future finish floor?

Cheers, Wayne

6.25-6.5"

 

[wwhitney]

On the venting, the latest drawing addresses everything except the flat shower vent under the slab. The shower vent needs to come off the shower drain with e.g. an upright combo, and stay vertical until 6" above the shower flood rim. That will work if you have a solid wall between the shower and the WC.

If you don't, the shallowest you could make the vent is to take it off with a wye rolled 45 degrees off plumb, a short section of pipe, and a 60 degree bend to go horizontal. That short section of pipe is 60 degrees off plumb, so horizontal, but this is an accepted compromise. With that technique you can point the shower trap outlet more towards the wall, put the wye near the wall so the vent enters the wall before emerging from the slab, and then bend the shower drain back towards the WC.

What's going on with the lavatory? Is it the drain that is entering the 3" stack via the wye under the rubber coupling? [That's the wrong style of rubber coupling, it's only for use below grade; above grade you need a fully shielded rubber coupling.] So the lav has a separate dry vent, not shown, which rises up to the attic, perhaps connecting to another dry vent on the way, as long as the joint is at least 6" above the flood rim of any of the fixtures vented?

If so, you do have the option to reroute the lav drain into the slab to use it for wet venting the shower and WC, rather than pulling a dry vent off the shower.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

6.25-6.5"

That's plenty of height for a closet bend or regular quarter bend if your 3" drain is running along side the closet flange rather than directly under it.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jeff H Young]

is that a 2 inch line running horizontal in a wall for a washing machine? cant see if you have a vent coming off that it would require one.
the verticle 3 inch with the fernco coupling in a drain and must not be used as a vent until after it reaches secound floor w/c

 

[RLrobinhood]

On the venting, the latest drawing addresses everything except the flat shower vent under the slab. The shower vent needs to come off the shower drain with e.g. an upright combo, and stay vertical until 6" above the shower flood rim. That will work if you have a solid wall between the shower and the WC.

If you don't, the shallowest you could make the vent is to take it off with a wye rolled 45 degrees off plumb, a short section of pipe, and a 60 degree bend to go horizontal. That short section of pipe is 60 degrees off plumb, so horizontal, but this is an accepted compromise. With that technique you can point the shower trap outlet more towards the wall, put the wye near the wall so the vent enters the wall before emerging from the slab, and then bend the shower drain back towards the WC.

What's going on with the lavatory? Is it the drain that is entering the 3" stack via the wye under the rubber coupling? [That's the wrong style of rubber coupling, it's only for use below grade; above grade you need a fully shielded rubber coupling.] So the lav has a separate dry vent, not shown, which rises up to the attic, perhaps connecting to another dry vent on the way, as long as the joint is at least 6" above the flood rim of any of the fixtures vented?

If so, you do have the option to reroute the lav drain into the slab to use it for wet venting the shower and WC, rather than pulling a dry vent off the shower.

Cheers, Wayne

Hi again, Thanks again so much for hanging with me on this. So, below is a picture of the wall with the Lavatory and what I was going to do with it. Red is drain, and Green is vent. In this setup, the washing machine standpipe won't be vented per se', but I think it will work.

In Purple, I think I have put what you described in the later part of the quote above. If I go this route, is there no need at all for an additional vent for the basement shower? If there is no need for another vent on the basement shower, then could I put a combination in the wall and out the back of the combo, run to the shower drain? If the answer to this is yes, then I could just put a closet bend on the end of the 3" main where the horizontal SanT is currently located. Thoughts on all of this?

I will replace that rubber coupler when I tear this apart. thoughts on that floor drain?

Again, thank you so much!

 

[Jeff H Young]

BTW, the Flat shower vent doesn't address the w/c going into a santee on back . or the fact that the w/c needs to be the last fixture if attempting to horizontal wet vent. And the things wrong are not unnecessary work.
Hard for me to articulate clearly the proper fixes but if you read through should be able to tell what's wrong with nearly all of it. sorry to be a bad news bear

 

[Jeff H Young]

never mind the washing machine is fine vented proper! but don't think about dumping a kitchen drain from floor above into it . it needs a drain line NO WET VENTING between floors. easy enough to bring a 2 INCH DRAIN line to second floor for kitchen not an 1 1/2 " for a kitchen
you are UPC code I believe

 

[wwhitney]

Now that we can see all of the DWV (hopefully) would you mind posting the 4 photos unmarked up, so I have a clean slate to mark them up?

I'm not familiar with the UPC rules on floor drains, but will look them up if I have a chance. Are you going to have a trap primer?

Cheers, Wayne