Delta cartridge problems

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by vistaman, Jun 7, 2008.

  1. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Back in February, planning our bathroom remodel and shopping for advice and recommendations for a new valve, advised to go with Delta. Didn't work out to well :) , my tale of woe follows:

    As you can see we're several months down the road on this one, finished our remodel about a month ago. I did choose the Delta Universal valve w/ScrewStops and added a 17430 trim kit (the 17 series controls volume with one lever and temperature with another). Looks great, installation was a breeze, except...

    I've had a problem with this setup since installation. The lever for volume has an approximate "arc" of turn of about 90 degrees from closed shut to full open. The first drop of water doesn't come out of this thing until I've turned the lever through a bit more than 45 degrees of the arc, then water continues to increase in volume until I hit the stop at about 90 degrees of arc.

    That means that I'm moving the lever a bit more than halfway before anything starts to happen! The amount of volume at full on is "sufficient", but not very great. It's difficult to quantify that, except to say it's certainly less than the old valve/trim gave us (from the 60's: two separate handles, etc). You sorta feel that if only the lever could continue to turn an additional 45 degrees you'd get all the volume you could handle <g>...

    Fooled with it a bit to see what I could have done wrong :confused:, but everything looked OK. I called Delta. Their response was to ask me to pull the cartridge and shake it, see it "rattled" to make sure it was not locked up. Did that, it rattled as it is supposed to.

    As [bad] luck would have it, after removing the cartridge to check it out, a cover and spring from the Cartridge Adapter Assembly popped off the adapter and went down the drain, no luck in finding it. Sooo, called Delta back, they very nicely agreed to send a replacement Cartridge Adapter Assembly, a small plastic part with some O-rings, springs, covers, etc, which fits into the valve body outlets. Took about 2 weeks to get here.

    Installed the adapter assembly, reinstalled the cartridge and trim, tested and still the same as first reported: no water comes out of the spout until about halfway through the turn of the lever. I called Delta to tell them we were back in business, the cartridge did rattle, and the problem was the same as intially reported. They very nicely agreed to send a replacement 17 Series cartridge in case the cartrige I had was bad, and it also took about 2 weeks to get here. They are very kind, willing, helpful folks, and I appreciate all they've done so far.

    The cartridge arrived earlier this week and the first chance I had to play with it was yesterday. Removed the cartridge (and the adapter assembly, because they had also sent a new one of those with the cartridge), reinstalled the whole deal, no luck, same thing, bit more than halfway through the turn before any water.

    Called Delta this morning, reported my results, placed on hold while they checked things out. They come back on the line and tell me that it is "normal" for the lever to have that much "drag" (their term for this) on it.

    So we're done. Wish to heck I'd never chosen Delta, and I sure won't chose them for the 2nd bathroom that starts next month. This was our "dream" bath, a complete down to the studs remodel, new everything and we've a decidedly crummy bath/shower experience.

    Just in case anyone here has some insight into what is happening, or any recommendations, I'd appreciate any and all comments that might lead to some better outcome :(

    vista...
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,798
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Not enough volume from the tub spout? or from the shower head?

    New shower heads are restricted to 2.5 gallons a minute.
    It wouldn't matter how big the faucet was, they have limiting on them.
    I've seen some homeowners drill out the restricter to get more flow in the shower head.
  3. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Hi Terry,

    Ahh, OK I understand :) The shower head ouptput is OK, the tub spout is a little slow, but probably correct. It's not so much the volume, it's the lack of volume control <g>. It just seems unusual to have this much "drag" on the opening of the cartridge. Have you seen this before? Is it "usual" in your experience? Delta say it's normal.

    vista...
  4. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
    You may want a plumber to look at this onsite...

    Just to have a visual of what exactly is going on. There may be some trouble relaying the exact nature of the problem via phone and internet.

    I have installed a few of the 1700 series valves and I consider them to be some of the best out there. I'm having trouble visualizing the exact problem you are having.
  5. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    I actually got this one based on your recommendation :) Not sure though what you think isn't being exact enough about the description of the problem. I'll try again:

    The volume lever is designed to move only a quarter turn from lock to lock, from closed to open, from full Off to full On.

    But, water only starts to come out of the spout after moving the lever a bit more than halfway to full On. The first half of the quarter turn, no water.

    This "dead" area, that is what Delta calls "drag". And they say that it is "normal" for there to be 45 degrees of drag.

    In your experience with the 1700 series, when you would turn on the water, did it take opening the valve more than halfway through its' range before any water would come out of the spout?
  6. RonIdaho

    RonIdaho New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Pocatello, ID
    Delta faucet

    Hi,
    We just installed 3 Delta 17455 kits which have the same RP46463 cartridge and R10000 valve body you do. I checked one and it does the same thing you're describing--roughly halfway on (45 degrees) before flow starts. I run the tub at full bore anyway so not a problem. The flow is slower than the old Moen valves that were replaced. The shower is adequate but is probably slower than its predecessor too. I have pix posted on my thread (Delta faucets and saving the wall tiles).

    I don't mind the flow difference that much, just getting used to the difference with the old setup we've had since 1989. What bugs me is the plastic "grate" in the faucet outlet that causes the water to splatter as it exits. Jeeze, why didn't they just leave it with an unrestricted outflow? I pull the shower knob up a quarter inch and that puts enough back pressure on the system that the water exits without splashing back on the tub rim, so for now that's what we're doing.
    Hope this helps,
    RonIdaho
  7. that is normal...or go to the 1300....

    that drag is normal...

    why does it bother you????

    I have literally put in thousands of 1500 and 1700 faucets
    and have never heard anyone complain about this before....

    you have to turn it on about half way before water begins
    to flow.... I suppose the drag is also a sort of time delay
    to prevent someone from douseing themselves too quickley
    with hot or cold water...

    the temp control on the front of the valve is very nice..


    but that is the nature of the pressure balanced beast

    the MOEN posi temp works about the same way too
    but they are of lesser quality than Delta..


    they both are made to be installed in hotels,
    and commercial applications too....


    it is more just getting used to the design than anything else..
    I have 3 in my home and they are literally trouble free for decades...


    try it out for a while,

    but if you must try some other faucet ....
    you can always down size the faucet to the 1300 style.....

    they should be able to send you the trim and the
    cartridge to change over that 1700 to a 1300...


    when you turn on the 1300 it comes out full power and
    full blast almost from the get go .... but you will lose the temp controll


    everything else out there is junk
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  8. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Thanks for the info Ron. At least now I'm sure that my install is "normal" and not frackled :) I have the same/similar problem with the spout splash. How did you adjust the diverter knob up? My spout has a different style diverter Instead of lifting the shower knob, I have a "pull down" diverter.
  9. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Oh it's not that big a deal :) I was just initially concerned that my self-install might have been incorrect. Coming from a 1960's style old 2-stem valve to this one was quite a bit different user experience. The new one is much better, but it just worked differently. From some of the comments here, it appears that it /is/ normal, and we're getting used to it.
  10. RonIdaho

    RonIdaho New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Pocatello, ID
    Diverter

    Check out my thread below: at least one photo shows my faucet with the top diverter. I got a better deal on three 17455 (tub and shower) kits than by buying the tub only and shower only kits so my tub only has a diverter on it even tho there's no shower. I lift that pin a quarter inch and that backs up the water enough that it is forced out without splattering. Crazy, huh?

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20697
  11. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Oh now I understand :) BTW, did you get your 17455 kits locally or online? My T17430 came from an online distributor with free shipping and good pricing.
  12. RonIdaho

    RonIdaho New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Pocatello, ID
    Online. They had a price of $169 for the 17455 and free shipping. I checked reviews on the company, found 4 of 5 positive ratings so I bought 'em. They arrived 3 days later, fastest shipping I've ever had. Checked Lowe's, mine were $93 each cheaper with the tax figured in. Also Lowe's said they were "temporarily unavailable". Just checked the other day and the online price is up to $215. We first discovered the big box guys weren't giving that good a price break (after having closed down the smaller local competition here) when we shopped for a kitchen faucet last year. $65 cheaper on the net and free shipping. I figure my savings greatly helped offset the price of having the valves installed without tearing up the walls. One other thing that bugged me about Lowe's. In the paper, they advertised a side mount rubbed bronze flush lever for $17. Got down there, didn't have it, but did have a similar model for $20. I bought them, but didn't care for the bait and switch tactic. They paid dearly, though, on the bigger ticket stuff.
  13. vistaman

    vistaman New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Yep, I also found similar deals after searching a bit and checking reviews. I tried 1st with a local supply house but the prices were just out of sight for the valve and trim combo. The trim kits at HD and Lowes both included the vlave body but they were still higher than the web prices. Purchasing from the web (also with free shipping) went well. I'm happy :)
  14. kplunk

    kplunk New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Delta type 17 cartridge

    Has anyone experienced this problem. I just installed this cartridge, and after installation, the water will not shut off, no matter what position the control handle is set. the water changes temp, but it never stops. i have two cartridges doing the same thing. They are back to back on the installation.
  15. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Kplunk....did you install the correct cartridge? There are new and old versions, of the cartridge, and they are not interchangeable.
  16. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,293
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    1700

    My initial reaction is that you did not insert the seat adapter that fastens inside the faucet to make it compatible with the 1700 cartridge.
  17. Robert Pace

    Robert Pace New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Pennington, NJ
    I have the same problem !!!!! Delta told me they have seen this problem before. Poor engineering if you ask me. New cartridge does the same thing. Should have bought a Moen.
  18. clroger

    clroger New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Medina, OH
    Anyone know if it is possible to go from a Delta 1500 series to beyond the 1700 series ?

    Wife picked out Mandara 144962-ss to replace and upgrade our fiberglass shower.

    Is it possible to just buy the shower parts without having to throw away the valve and tub parts, what a waste of money. Come on Delta.

    thx all
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