Cycle stop valve problem

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by danp, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. danp

    danp New Member

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    I have a CSV1Z installed and a 32 gallon wellxtrol tank (app 8 gallon drawdown) I am happy with the results of the CSV1Z when there is more then a 2 GPM demand however have a consistent problem with the well pump not running long enough on a cycle when the demand is off.

    I have a 1hp 10 gpm pump. pressure switch set to 40/60. valve is adjusted to 50 psi. With no demand the pressure tank is filling faster then the 1gpm rate the valve is supposed to let pass to fill the tank. The tank is reaching shut off pressure in less then 1 minute indicating it is filling at almost 4-8gpm.

    My initial thought was the pump is oversized for the tank size but thought the CSV was supposed to alleviate the need for a larger tank.

    Any thoguhts?
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    A 1HP GPM pump depending on depth to water could give you 12-15 GPM. The CSV will let more GPM through when the pressure is below the setting.

    I don't see what you describe as a problem. So what if the tank fills in less than a minute if you are not using water?
  3. danp

    danp New Member

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    A 1 HP motor should run a minimum of 2 minutes to cool the windings. A cycle of less then 1 minute is bad for the pump. This is one of the reasons I installed the CSV in the first place VS a much larger pressure tank.
  4. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller Member

    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I've had similar problems with some models of CSV that have high headloss at higher flows ..(or pressure drop off or friction loss) whatever anyone wants to call it...it's all the same results....on an adjustable CSV, you cannot say that it is set for 50 psi, without saying what flow rate you set it at (in my opinion....valveman may agree or disagree). So, if you buy a valve factory set at 50 psi...you don't know what flow rate that was.... the valve will not hold the same pressure with a 1 gpm flow as it will with a 20 gpm flow, or a 10 gpm flow...you have to factor in the flow rate and pressure loss. So to alleviate your problem, you could open a 1 gpm demand, and then set the valve to hold 50 psi...or 2 gpm demand (whatever that particular valve is supposed to go as low as)....I prefer to set the valve in close proximity to the majority of my demand range...so if I think I'll be using between 5 and 10 gpm most of the time...I might open a 7.5 gpm demand and set the valve at the pressure I want.
  5. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller Member

    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Forgot to say you should check your tank drawdown to make sure it's holding the 8 gallons you think it is.
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Only if another cycle starts before the pump has a chance to cool. If you are not drawing water, then it is unlikely the pump will start again in a minute or two. If you are drawing water, it should run for more than a minute.
  7. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If you set the CSV at 50 PSI while running 3-4 GPM, then it will deliver about 55 PSI at 1 GPM. If that tank is holding 8 gallons as it should, at 55 PSI it has 6 gallons in it and the CSV should take another couple of minutes to get it from 55 to 60 PSI. But if the CSV is set high enough that is holds 1 GPM at 58 PSI, then it won’t take very long to top the tank off to 60 PSI.

    As VA said, a CSV set at 58 PSI while using 1 GPM, will hold 48 PSI constant while using 20 GPM. Setting the CSV to hold 58 PSI at 1 GPM, so you get 20 GPM at 48 PSI is how you adjust the CSV to make up for the reduced pressure falloff at 20 GPM.

    Although, when using a CSV, the one to two minutes of run time is no longer needed. When the CSV restricts the pumps flow the amperage also drops. Dropping the amperage de-rates the motor, making it run cooler, and it no longer requires a minute of run time to dissipate the heat.

    The CSV won’t let the pump shut off until you are finished using water. So as LL says, the pump should then stay off long enough to cool down completely.

    If the CSV is really set at 58-59 PSI at 1 GPM as I think it is, then I am not at all concerned that the tank is filling in less than 1 minute, 30 seconds is plenty. However, you should check to make sure you are getting the 8 gallons draw down from the tank as you should be.
  8. Scup

    Scup New Member

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Stonington, CT
    I am a newbie here, and am hoping to satisfy my concern about doing the right thing concerning my well water system by bouncing off my knowledge of well systems in a discussion with professional well men. Well, I am not exactly a newbie as I am 75 years old and even worse I have installed only one well system in my entire life for which the 3 wire 1 HP submersible pump finally died after 35 years. Understand that I hold two degrees electrical engineering and have never been known to be a people person but one of honesty. I definitely do not wish to get into an argument with anyone but do wish to promote a conversation to meet my own water needs and understanding.

    I have a 18 foot dug well whose bottom's diameter is 6 feet which for all practical purposes is excellent heat sink. Living in New England means the well water temperature remains around 50 degrees (actually 49 degrees right now) year round. Like many dug wells, in time of extreme drought, the water table can, and has, dropped below my submersible's pump's intake. This happened only twice in 35 years. Living on a salt water cove means finding good water could be problematic as a deep drilled well failed to produce (one gallon per hour) and what it did produce was salty. Hence a dug well, located over 300 feet from the salt water cove, whose bottom is higher than sea level was implemented. A submersible pump was used in lieu of shallow well pump because of an elevation rise between my home, located close to the cove, and the wells location. It made priming the pump a bitch; hence I just dropped a submersible pump into the well such that the bottom of the pump (its motor) was buried two or three inches into the sandy bottom where it worked for over 35 years. I know, it sounds like I did everything wrong, but the well was always fairly clean, and I doubt if the pump's motor ever overheated because it was sunk in 50 degree water of enormous latent heat capacity. In addition, it did last over 35 years, so it is kind of hard to argue with the results.

    I just had a professional well man install a replacement Franklin pump 1/2 hp, series 5, ten gallons per minute; the pump size was his choice, not mine. Being concerned that it would be unlikely for it to hold up for more than five years or so, I was thinking about installing a Franklin Pumptec Plus unit to protect it against running dry and CSV system which seems to have been sold on this form by many as the modern way to go. I just wrote to Franklin pumps to find out if installing a CSV and the Pumptec Plus unit would be compatible and work together.

    Understand, this is the exact reply I received from Franklin:

    "We do not recommend a CSV to be put on submersibles. There is a serious change of inadequate flow to cool motor and addition down thrust on the motor shortening the life.



    Wally Neighbors

    Technical Service Engineer"

    I am not particularly worried about cooling or water flowing over the pump since the pump is sitting in a sea of 50 degree water, nor am I worried about the Franklin Rep’s spelling. From college, I remember water has an excellent heat of transfer so unless the pump could heat up a thousand gallons or so of 50 degree water, I just do not see where cooling for me would be a problem. However, the down thrust on the motor does have me concerned as I do not understand that answer either. Newton claims every action has a reaction so if a CSV reduces flow to maintain pressure, then why wouldn't the down thrust be less since less water is being pushed upward, thus lengthening the motor's life?

    Franklin's answer did not sit well for me but unless they have an ax to grind, which I doubt, I do not understand their stated position.

    In truth, I did not understand several of the items stated on this form by members either. Submersible pumps are designed to work continuously and the heat built up in them is due to electrical heat generation and internal friction. Neither one of these exist if the motor is off. True, one can understand the need for say a variable speed electric drill being used at slow RPM (high torque) to be run unloaded for a while to cool it off since the drill was never designed to be operated continuously as stated. However, a submersible pump (like in my case) stops the generation of heat and is quickly cooled once secured. Not the same thing as a submersible pump confined in a small volume of water (inside a narrow drilled well) of fairly high temperatures, and with a limited flow rate.

    The next item that has me asking "why" is the statement "the stop/run cycles is what destroys pumps". I understand that cycling in a two wire pump will eventually cause the internal start switch to fail, hence a shot pump, so why not have a three wire pump where the contactor is located in a control box. The Franklin control box I have seen used a solid state contactor whose life is not even subject to mechanical wear and tear. So again, please explain why starting and stopping an electrical pump when the switching is properly done at a remote location (control box) using the most reliable solid state switching device known to mankind should be a problem?
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  9. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I am glad you quoted the crap that Franklin is telling people. I maybe able to use that, but I wish you had gotten it in writing from them.

    Franklin has a big axe to grind with the CSV. The CSV is disruptive to their industry. It makes pumps last longer, use smaller tanks, and does away with the need for their most profitable items like VFD’s.

    Ever once in a while there is a pump system that defies the laws of physics. A pump lasting 35 years is the first unusual thing. Being set a few inches into the mud usually burns up a motor in a matter of days. But if you never use a sprinkler or anything that runs for more than a couple of minutes at a time, I guess the heat has time to transfer into the mud instead of water.

    Because of the abundant rainfall and subsequent lack of irrigation in your area, pumps usually last a long time as they are very lightly used. I can see why you are confused about the heat buildup and transfer from a submersible motor. You are right that none of that happens when the pump is off, which yours is most of the time, so I see why you think that.

    I also see why people would think a submersible would stay cooler in a large body of water as compared to “narrow casing”, but just the opposite is true. The motor is a foot or two below the intake of the pump. So without a current in the lake or well, the water around the motor can boil, while a few inches above the motor, cool water is going in the intake and getting pumped to the surface.

    With a flow inducer sleeve or small diameter casing fed from below, a flow of water goes past the motor before entering the pump, which is what keeps the motor cool. Franklin motor cooling charts do not list a large body of cold water as acceptable. It states the required flow past the motor in feet per second. If there is no flow going past the motor, the heat from the motor can boil the water and destroy the motor quickly.

    Most 2 wire submersible motors have a Biac switch, not a centrifugal start switch as in above ground type motors. It is not just the switch that is destroyed from cycling, but many other things as well. Shafts can be broken, splined couplings and impeller hubs can be stripped out, on top of burned pressure switches, start relays and capacitors. However, it is the “canned stator” design of a submersible motor that takes the most abuse from cycling. “Canned stator” means the windings are encased in solid epoxy. When the motor heats up the “canned stator” swells up. When the motor cools down the stator contracts. When the pump is cycling on/off rapidly, the stator doesn’t have time to cool down and contract before the motor is restarted. The stator is swelled up enough that the rotor shaves off a little meat when it starts turning. The shaved off debris gums up the motor and gets into the thrust bearing, which begins a quick death march for the motor.

    Also Kingbury type thrust bearings have a film of water hydroplaning between the plates when spinning at least 50% of full speed. This film of water makes this type of bearing completely frictionless. As long as the motor is spinning at least 50% of full speed, there is actually no wear at all on a Kingsbury type bearing. However, each time the pump starts, the bearing runs dry until the pump gets to 50% of full speed. This grinds off a little of the bearing at each start, and is greatly exacerbated if the motor starts before it has time to completely cool down. So the fewer starts, the longer a pump/motor will last.

    When a CSV restricts the flow rate, it just makes the pump think it is in a deeper well. Restricting the flow or putting a pump in a deeper well will increase the K factor and cause more down thrust on the bearing. So if “addition down thrust shortens the life of a motor” then they should only be installed in shallow wells, and any restrictor like a Dole valve, (which are very common on pump systems) should be strictly forbidden. Of course this is ridiculous, as submersibles will work fine in very deep wells. And the restricted flow from a CSV is not “inadequate to cool the motor”. Franklin should feel very foolish saying this as hundreds of thousands of successful CSV systems over more than 20 years proves that to be incorrect.

    Oh and people who have installed thousands of pump systems would not call the “solid state switches the most reliable know to mankind”, we call them a piece of junk.

    I wish you would contact Franklin again and get them to send that to you in writing. I am sure they won’t do it, but that fact would also be telling. Pumps are confusing enough without them spreading false accusations. But keeping things confusing is kind of their goal. If everybody understood what it took to make pumps last a long time, Franklin would go out of business.

    Many things about pumps/motors are counter-intuitive, so it common for someone of your education to be confused on some issues. I teach classes to many pump engineers. Most of them are also confused. The counter-intuitive part of pumps and motors means the stuff they learned in school doesn’t apply in the real world. Don’t let Franklin confuse you even further. They will say anything to try and keep your new motor from lasting another 35 years.

    And if I am wrong after saying these things for so many years, why hasn’t Franklin sent lawyers after me, or at least put someone on this forum to argue with me? I know they hate what I say, but they can’t argue with the facts. I would love a chance to argue with them in court or at least on a public forum, but they are not likely to let that happen. Wonder why??
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  10. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Too bad they don't make them like they did 35 years ago. I don't see the 35 years of longevity as anecdotal evidence of having done everything right. Rather, I see it as amazing despite having done it wrong. I don't think a motor built today would be as forgiving.
  11. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    I agree. I also don’t think the new pump will be stuck a few inches down in the sand. That is because motors are much shorter than they were 35 years ago. They made them shorter because too many of them were accidentally lasting 35 years. I’ll bet the new motor is a foot shorter than the old one.
  12. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
  13. Scup

    Scup New Member

    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Stonington, CT
    Valveman,

    Appreciate the time you spent on providing such a detailed explanation. Actually my old pump was used to back flush a PH tank at 4 gallons per minute for 12 minutes every day. After doing this for years, I backed off and found by trial and error that once a week was fine.

    I do have the email sent to me by Franklin, and would have no problem in forwarding it to you?

    Now I am concerned as to just how long my Franklin 1/2 HP series V pump is going to hold out. It is a smaller pump than my old one and the same drop pipe was used to place it in the well. I suspect the bottom of the pump is just an inch or two off the bottom since the motor part of the pump is a couple of inches shorter than the old motor.

    No flow inducer sleeve was installed with the replacement pump. Understand that I am not arguing with you, but I really do not believe I could boil the water at the bottom of my well at a localized point using a propane weed burner no matter how long I played the flame on the surface. Probably, I would pass out from oxygen starvation before I would see anything boil. This 1/2 HP pump only draws 6 amps which even if all the energy went into waste heat, that is still only 240 times 6 or 1440 watts. My 50 gallon water heater has a heater element working at 4800 watts and it takes over an hour to bring up the 50 degree well water to 120 degrees. Nevertheless, the next time a pump goes down my well, it is going to have flow inducer sleeve.

    Valveman, now I requesting a recommendation as what type of SCV would be suitable? I noted that the PK1A PSIDE- KICK Kit is advertised all over the place and since the installation instructions and videos are out there, it was convenient to read up on this model as is seems like a cinch to install it. I like the idea of stainless fittings since the unit will be before my PH tank. Our acid New England water seems to eat through many metals that have not been treated including a few of my Zurn PEX brass fittings.

    Since tables were supplied on the net for this SCV system concerning the pump's horsepower/GPM versus the minimum and maximum depth of well water for the allowable operable SCV range, they have gotten me confused once again. For example, a 10 GPM, 1/2 HP pump, requires a Depth to water minimum level of 0', and a Depth to water Maximum level of 40'. What in the world does minimum depth to the water level of 0' mean? Even when Sandy went by us, the water level in my well never came up to the surface, and the maximum depth of anything more than 18 feet would be impossible since my well is only 18 feet deep! Am I understanding these tables correctly, i.e., I should be fine with an 18 foot deep shallow well and a SCV system?

    While I am not sure why well men consider solid state switches to be junk, since I spent a lifetime in living with them as they worked flawlessly in high powered Naval sonar systems; the ones I have seen in action were not junk. I suspect what could be, and what is supplied, are two very different items. True, even the finest and the most reliable pieces of hardware, can be reduced to junk by so-so manufacturers.

    Let me know if you wish to have me forward the Franklin email to you and in particular let me know how I can go about doing it (i.e. sending a personal email to you). Thank you very much for allowing me to pick your brains!
    I am already very glad I joined up!
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  14. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Please, Please send me that email as soon as possible. I have been waiting decades for someone to get that in writing.

    email is caustin@cyclestopvalves.com

    And thank you very much for sending it to me. I will answer your other questions on a later post.
  15. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,126
    Location:
    Maine
    An axe to grind?

    Do you really think that Franklin electric, a billion dollar company that supplies motors for just about every pump manufacturer and who sells millions of them is in the least bit concerned with the comparatively minuscule amount of CSV sales? Really?
  16. DonL

    DonL Out of the Trades

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    Location:
    Houston, TX

    This could lead to a Book Deal.

    I will buy one just for grins.


    Have a Happy New Year.
  17. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Here’s your book Don. Free of charge! Happy New Year!

    I am sorry if the following seems I am bragging, which I am not. I just thought a little background might help others understand why I claim such proficiency on this subject. I have known a lot of old guys in the pump business I could call when I had questions. Most of those guys are long dead and gone. I finally realized I am the old guy now, and I need to be passing on the knowledge others gave to me, and that is what I am doing.

    Yes I do! During my many years (decades) in this business, I have been privy to many a conversation with some of the “big dogs” in the industry. While I learned a lot from them, it fails in comparison to what I learned form employees and especially ex-employees of many of these companies.

    20 years ago I was naïve like you. I never thought businesses would deceive people just to sell more of their products. I never heard of planned obsolescence, or a “fluid business system”. I couldn’t believe someone would purposely make something to fail in a short amount of time, when they very aware of an easy way to make it last forever. I didn’t understand what they were saying when ex-employees of big pump companies told me the CSV had been “blacklisted” as a “disruptive product”.

    I’ve grown up since then. I don’t trust anything. If someone tells me “this pill” will lower your blood pressure, or “this meat” is safe to eat, I immediately start wondering how it will destroy my liver, or cause bleeding from the eyes and rectum. If someone tells me he can spend us back into prosperity, I anticipate a boondoggle. And I am very aware of the “marketing” that is going on in my industry. I have even been approached by some of the biggest players in the field about a buy out, just to shut me down. Every CSV I sell knocks them out of 3 replacement pumps and they know it. So even my “minuscule sales” is costing them 150,000 pumps a year.

    So I don’t just think, I know these big companies don’t like what I do or say. But let me put this back on you. I am trying just to get a personal email from Franklin with any definitive statements about the CSV. So find me any proof that what I say isn’t correct. Show me an independent third party study that says something different. Look for a pump or motor company that voids warranty and specifically mentions the CSV as damaging in anyway. Get me an engineering study that shows any of the forces created by a CSV are detrimental to a pump or motor.

    Believe me, if the proof was out there, someone would have used it against me by now. I have waited for that shoe to drop for 20+ years. It never came. Just like it never came for Dole Valve, or any of the other restrictive devices that have been around a lot longer than I have. There were a few times when it got close and a pump engineer would say, “you can’t do that”. But after a little conversation with me they have always ended up saying, “humph, I guess I’m not too old to learn a new trick”.

    So again, let me put this back on you “Tom”. Find me some definitive proof that what I say is not correct, or stop insinuating that I don’t know what I am talking about. I have a business to run and I spend my spare time trying to help people solve a few of their water system problems. But I would be more than happy to have you come to my shop or one of my classes, if you want to expand your pump skills a little. I can probably answer all your questions over the phone if you would like to call me, then we can quit wasting everyone else’s time as well.
  18. DonL

    DonL Out of the Trades

    Messages:
    3,905
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    That was Nice.

    Works on my Kindle too.


    Thank You.
  19. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,126
    Location:
    Maine
    And you can get back to selling CSV 's. Lol

    BTW, I've been in the pump and filter business for 39 years. I have seen products come and go. I have heard sales pitches from the best of them too. In the end I have the research that I have done and I have said what it amounts too on several threads here and furthermore, just to clarify, I am not opposed to a CSV for certain and specific instances but it is not and never will be the solution that you claim.
  20. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Then prove it! Or come to my shop where I can prove what I am saying. I am a show me kind of guy, so I have a test facility where I can simulate just about anything you want to try. I am sure I have already done the test that would prove anything you have a misunderstanding about. I probably have a video of it as well. I have tested number and length of cycles in many different scenarios. I have tested thrust bearings, impellers, shafts, couplings, windings, VFD’s, other valves, water hammer, tank bladders, and anything else I could think of. And I proved to myself everything I have been saying, or I wouldn’t be saying it.

    You won’t find me trying to give information on the plumbing, softener, electrical, or any other forum. But on this subject I am certain of my advice, or I wouldn’t be giving it.
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