Convert bladder tank to hydro-pneumatic?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by BDrivenByDemons, May 13, 2014.

  1. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    You got 7 years out of your first air cell.

    However I am eager to hear how the experiment works.
     
  2. craigpump

    craigpump Well-Known Member

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    Apr 12, 2012
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    Self employed water system tech
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    Connecticut
    Good to see that Sta Rite still hasn't figured out how to make a tank.
     
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    The air bag design means that the bag needs to shrink and stretch on every pump cycle, which is why they are made so thin. The diaphragm design doesn't need to stretch, only fold back and forth like turning a sock inside out.

    Bladder tanks should not be used between a micronizer and the iron filter. The precipitated iron builds up between the bag and the tank walls. The air that the micronizer entrains, collects at the top of the tank and eventually burps through at the bottom of the pump cycle. This happens in larger quantity when draw exceeds the fill rate imposed by the micronizer and pressure drops well below the cut-in. If this happens during backwash, the air can lift the media out of the iron filter if it has no top basket.

    In the OP's case, there is a second tank with AVC after the bladder tank so the air burping would not be an issue as long as the AVC keeps working. The AVC is a maintenance item and sooner or later, they will quit working.
     
  4. craigpump

    craigpump Well-Known Member

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    LOL I know why & how they function, or supposed to function. Real world experience is that after a few years Sta Rite tanks make great garbage cans.
     
  5. BDrivenByDemons

    BDrivenByDemons Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Location:
    IL
    Well, wife and kids were at school and work and I had a day off so I decided it would be a good day to try and destroy something... Here's some pics...




    Top of my tank. Those bolts with that huge opening made things super easy.

    [​IMG]



    The bladder came right out once I let the pump squeeze all the air/water out of it by removing the schrader valve tip. Decided to pump it up a little once removed to see if she'd hold air. Things looked promising!

    [​IMG]


    Nope :( big gash at the bottom of the air cell

    [​IMG]


    Quick peek in the top of the tank. I was expecting 3" of iron sediment sitting on the bottom since I have that air injector in-line before this tank. Not bad at all, only a slight coating. I ran down to ace and threw in a cup or so of iron out before I threw it all back together. Figured it wouldn't hurt.

    [​IMG]


    And finally my custom air bladder modification.

    [​IMG]


    So before I bolted the top back on I turned on the pump and got about 3" of water in the bottom of the tank. Then I threw the cup of iron out in and sealed her up. Pumped in 38psi since my cut-in is 40. It seemed like it took forever to get all that air in there which I was happy about knowing maybe I finally had a good air charge. It held at 38 for a few minutes so I fired up the pump and let it cycle normally. I also let it sit for a while to let the iron out do its job then turned on some faucets to transfer that iron-out water over to my contact tank. I don't even know if that was needed but I figured wtf. Finally I set the air injector to cut out at about 50psi so I'm getting 1/2 an air charge per pump cycle which I HOPE will maintain the air needed in the tank. I didn't hear any burping of air when a ran the tank down but i'm sure that will change as it runs more. I'll update this in a few weeks to let you all know how it's working.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2014
  6. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Rocket Scientist
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    Houston, TX
    Nice Pictures, Thanks for your post.

    Looks like a piece of Junk to me.

    Un Believable they sell that crap.
     
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Information Technology
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    In the absence of an AVC the air will eventually burp forward and accumulate at the top of the iron filter media tank. Usually the backwash will purge the air before any of it burps forward into the house plumbing.
     
  8. BDrivenByDemons

    BDrivenByDemons Member

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    Location:
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    That bladder is a huge p.o.s. Not durable at all as you can see. It has a somewhat rigid property. Not soft and flexible like you would imagine.
     
  9. BDrivenByDemons

    BDrivenByDemons Member

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    I have a second contact tank right after this one with an air vent so its all good. Everything working fine so far.
     
  10. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Rocket Scientist
    Location:
    Houston, TX

    Looks like what you find inside of a wine Box.

    It was designed by Wine-O's


    Nice work, on your part. Thanks for sharing.
     
  11. BDrivenByDemons

    BDrivenByDemons Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Well, this setup is still working great. The tank still has great pressure and the air bleed takes care of excess air perfectly. Just wanted to update this in case someone wanted to try it for themselves.
     
  12. BDrivenByDemons

    BDrivenByDemons Member

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    Haven't been here in a while. Figured I'd bump this and let anyone interested know this setup is still working great. 2 1/2 years and no problems at all.
     
  13. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I am glad to hear it is successful for you. Do you know how much iron remains after this system?
     
  14. BDrivenByDemons

    BDrivenByDemons Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Location:
    IL
    I've never tested the water after the iron removal tank but I can tell you the input pipes to the softener installed right after the iron removal tank are pristine. If you look at the input to the iron remover it's full of iron. If it's not removing 100% of the iron it's definitely removing 99%. ;)
     
  15. Bob McNamara

    Bob McNamara New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Hi BDriven, I have the same type of Pro-Source Fibrewound Tank. My bladder is faulty and they no longer make a replacement. I was looking to do exactly what you did. I stumbled across your post and would like to give this a try. I come from an Electrical/General contractor background. 35 years in the business. I'm looking to "build a better mouse trap" using my existing tank. Although I follow most of what you did, there are a couple of sticking points for me. Terminology. "The air injector"??? I don't think I have one on my existing configuration. what is it and do I need to install one? I was actually looking at installing some kind of air pressure regulator and small compressor, but if it can be made simpler ... great!
     
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I am afraid that you are "re-inventing the wheel" instead. Bladder style tanks do not need air injectors, compressors, etc.. The point of the bladder is to do away with these air injector type systems that usually cause a lot of maintenance problems. A decent brand of diaphragm tank would make a big difference. Then if you limit the pump cycling the diaphragm will last a long time.

    If you turn this into a old style air over water tank system, you will need to do one of the following.

    Add a small compressor with its own pressure switch and a probe in the tank to control air volume.
    or
    Add a micronizer air injector to the incoming line to the tank. Then an Air Volume Control (AVC) about half way up the tank to let out excess air.
    or
    Add a bleeder orifice to a tee about 5' down the well. Add a control check valve with a Schrader to the inlet line of the pressure tank. The AVC will also be needed with this type system.
     
  17. Bob McNamara

    Bob McNamara New Member

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    Mar 28, 2017
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Hi Cary, Yes I understand where your coming from but for me a small (oilless) air compressor ($50.00 Harbor Freight) and pressure switch is an easy fix. Because the Fibrewound tank should last many more years, I would then have a system that I can easily replace any component quickly and inexpensively. Worst case scenario. It doesn't perform well and I rip it out and replace it (which your basically telling me to do now).
     
  18. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Without a probe or an Air volume Control the air compressor will add too much air, and air will blow out of your faucets. But everybody needs a project to keep them entertained. If nothing else you will learn a lot about how tank systems work. Good luck.

    But with the right pump control system you could be out golfing or something else, as the reason water is dependably coming out of your faucets should not even cross your mind.
     
  19. PumpMd

    PumpMd Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Occupation:
    Water Well Pump Installer
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Before you use an old air over water tank (future reference)

    I would get your water quality checked to see if your water will be alright with that old tank, without clogging things up or rusting out the tank in short time. PH,Calcium,Manganese, and Iron are the things your going to check. If, things start clogging up all the time, I would toss everything for the air volume controller or the micronizer air injector, just to put the air back into the tank "manually" and to see how long I can go before it needs air again(same thing people are doing with bladder tanks these days). So are you really "re-inventing the wheel" or is the pressure tank company's re-inventing the wheel these days?
     
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