Combo Water Conditioner

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rfseabc

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Are any of the water wizards here familiar with a combo water conditioner ?
I live on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State, a local water service company tested my well water with the recommendation that I need to upgrade to there system.
There Combo Water Conditioner consists of a 54" tank with 1/3 Cu. ft. K.D.F.-85 at the bottom, with 1 cu. Ft. ion exchange resin, freeboard, Fleck 2510 control valve.
My water chemistry at the well is:
Hardness=34
Fe=1.8
A.M.=0.6
A.KDF=0.2
PH=7.6
T.D.S.=350
Would really appreciate your thoughts and recommendations regarding this system and others.
Thanks
 

Mialynette2003

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I've never liked KDF media. It comes as KDF-55 to remove chlorine & KDF 85 to remove smell (H2S). I've only used it a fews time 20 years ago and was not pleased with the results. This is just my personal opinion.
 

rfseabc

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I've never liked KDF media. It comes as KDF-55 to remove chlorine & KDF 85 to remove smell (H2S). I've only used it a fews time 20 years ago and was not pleased with the results. This is just my personal opinion.
Thanks for the reply, could you elaborate on what displeased you regarding the KDF media, given my Hardness and Iron, would you have any suggestions, also very curious your opinion regarding KDF media and resin in same tank, it seems to be a subject I'm having a hard time finding info on.
Thanks
 

ditttohead

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KDF is one of the best medias available but as Mialynette said, it does not work... displeased...

Your application, putting KDF in the bottom of the tank is a guaranteed failure of a design. KDF must be backwashed regularly and heavily. A 10" tank would require a backwash rate of approximately 15 gpm, the softening resin would require a backwash rate of 2.5 gpm, as you can see, these to medias are incompatible in the same tank. A stacked tank design, or tank next to tank, or an integrated media guard is the only way KDF would work, not just dumping it into the bottom of a softener tank. I have pulled apart many of these and the KDF simply clumps itself into a cement ball in the bottom of the tank. Not very effective.
 

Bannerman

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KDF is an extremely heavy media which requires a high flow rate to adequately backwash. The softener resin is relatively light and doesn't need much water flow to backwash. As KDF will fail if not adequately backwashed but the high flow rate for the KDF will lift the resin too much and risk flushing the resin to drain.

As KDF is so heavy, it will settle to the bottom of the tank, below the resin. Since the KDF is intended to remove the iron, the iron removal should occur prior to softening, not after as will occur with the resin and KDF in the same tank. Since the water will flow through the resin first, iron removal will not occur in the KDF but in the resin which is prone to iron fouling.
 

Reach4

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Maybe they use an upflow softener.
 

rfseabc

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Firstly, would like to thank everyone for there replies and Terry for this site, bought my first of many Toto toilets from Terry in Bellevue Wa. in the early 90's, always ahead of the pack, and a wealth of information.
Secondly a little geological history surrounding the place I inhabit now.
Sequim Wa. is situated on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State, separated by Puget Sound and its basin to the west, and to the north by the Strait of Juan de Fuca. All the bed rock is part of the steeply tilted slab of oceanic crust ( Eocene basalt oceanic crust ) that wraps around the Olympic Peninsula where the two tectonic plates meet forming the Olympic Mountains to the east, a few short miles and to the west lie the Straits, I am situated about 160' above sea level about three miles from that body of water.
During the last ice age, an enormous glacier filled the Straits of Juan de Fuca all the way to the ocean, a considerable distance.
The ice flowed south from British Columbia carrying distinctive Canadian rocks that now litter the north slope of the Olympic Mountains to an elevation of 4500 feet, the glacier must have been more than 4500' thick considering it extended to the bottom of the Strait and the sea level was about 300' lower than it is today. Much smaller, but very large glaciers flowed down the high valleys on the Olympic Mountains to join the main glacier in the Straits. So cutting a long story short, I am situated in an area of glacial till, sand and gravel with a water hardness of 34, Fe of 1.8, and PH of 7.6 as my foes, other than that what has happened here has created a not to bad natural filter system?
So at this point in time I am going to replace the existing the 25 year old Mclean two tank, side by side system with something that is newer and hopefully better, with a RO unit downstream at the kitchen sink mainly for drinking, cooking, expresso machine usage, etc.
Now will warn you, I am a 68 year old, mildly dyslexic, more than likely pre alzheimer/dementia, slow but steady learner and given the what seems to be the landscape of schools of thought in the field of water purification and there many differing views
please have patience for my ignorance if you are still with me here.
Thanks again for your input.
 

Reach4

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pH of 7.6 is in the middle of the ideal range.
 

Reach4

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No sulfur problems, etc? Iron and hardness are readily dealt with. There are lots of water conditions that are not so easily dealt with. Think of the people with silica, arsenic, and other stuff that is harder to deal with.

If it was not clear, the people posting here would suggest a separate iron filter followed by an appropriately sized softener. The fact is that a softener will also remove iron, but besides needing more salt, it need to be regularly treated with Iron Out, or some other thing like Rescare. That backwashing iron filter will usually also deal with some other things too. My iron+sulfur filter uses Centaur Carbon. It was a big help. Katalox Light can deal with those and more.

Now is the KDF going to help? I don't know. http://www.premierwatermn.com/kdf-water-filters-iron-chlorine/ says that KDF85 should have a backwash rate of 30 gpm/sq. ft. Softener resin needs about 6 gpm/sq. ft. Iron media usually needs backwashing more frequently than softener resin usually. There are controllers that do upflow brining. But usually those are downflow durning the service time. I wonder if they use some kind of controller to the KDF get hit by the water first.

There is a system that does not mix the media, even though they are in the same tank. MediaGuard would be like a tiny tank inside of the tank. That holds the KDF, and the water being processed hits that first. The water then continues on down. That appears to solve the major problems. The backwash will be stronger per square ft in that little tank, because the cross section of that is much smaller. Also, the KDF is there for iron removal. But dang, that is an awfully small dose of KDF. Is that sufficient? I don't know. But I feel it's got to be a lot better than just mixing the media.

The more conventional 2 tank system is going to take more space, yes. But it is less proprietary. And it is going to have a bigger dose of iron removal media that will be cheaper per cubic inch (I said cubic inch rather than cubic ft for lame humor effect.)

On a different point, 1 cubic ft of softener resin is unlikely to be big enough for 34 grains of hardness. Consider using the http://qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm and continue to the calculator link at the bottom. If you are cash limited, you could get a softener sized to handle hardness and iron for now, and then maybe put an iron plus whatever filter in front of that later (helped by the fact that you allocated space in advance). There have been a lot of intense discussions on that. The iron filter first is significantly better. The softener-only works pretty well, but takes some more maintenance.
 

ditttohead

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Many companies simply dump KDF into the tank with other medias knowing that it will have little if any function, it is just marketing. If KDF is not applied correctly, it will either not function, fail, and can even cause some unique problems. If it is applied correctly, it is one of the better medias for its functionality. Unfortunately, the majority of companies do not know how to use it, or they use it for marketing purposes only.
The media guard works great for chlorine reduction, I would not recommend it for iron reduction though some companies do order them that way from us.
The picture shows my personal system (which is being replaced in a month with a new and improved version!) which has KDF applied correctly. The KD is in the smallest tank and is 30+ pounds of it. The small diameter tank allows for adequate backwashing, thought the frequency is not technically often enough. I try to overcome the infrequent backwashing by using longer backwash cycles than normal. All of my low tds regeneration water goes to irrigation so it is not really much of a loss.

I would recommend a properly designed iron reduction system with a properly sized softener. Not really complex,

prototypeweb.jpg
 

rfseabc

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No sulfur problems, etc? Iron and hardness are readily dealt with. There are lots of water conditions that are not so easily dealt with. Think of the people with silica, arsenic, and other stuff that is harder to deal with.

If it was not clear, the people posting here would suggest a separate iron filter followed by an appropriately sized softener. The fact is that a softener will also remove iron, but besides needing more salt, it need to be regularly treated with Iron Out, or some other thing like Rescare. That backwashing iron filter will usually also deal with some other things too. My iron+sulfur filter uses Centaur Carbon. It was a big help. Katalox Light can deal with those and more.

Now is the KDF going to help? I don't know. http://www.premierwatermn.com/kdf-water-filters-iron-chlorine/ says that KDF85 should have a backwash rate of 30 gpm/sq. ft. Softener resin needs about 6 gpm/sq. ft. Iron media usually needs backwashing more frequently than softener resin usually. There are controllers that do upflow brining. But usually those are downflow durning the service time. I wonder if they use some kind of controller to the KDF get hit by the water first.

There is a system that does not mix the media, even though they are in the same tank. MediaGuard would be like a tiny tank inside of the tank. That holds the KDF, and the water being processed hits that first. The water then continues on down. That appears to solve the major problems. The backwash will be stronger per square ft in that little tank, because the cross section of that is much smaller. Also, the KDF is there for iron removal. But dang, that is an awfully small dose of KDF. Is that sufficient? I don't know. But I feel it's got to be a lot better than just mixing the media.

The more conventional 2 tank system is going to take more space, yes. But it is less proprietary. And it is going to have a bigger dose of iron removal media that will be cheaper per cubic inch (I said cubic inch rather than cubic ft for lame humor effect.)

On a different point, 1 cubic ft of softener resin is unlikely to be big enough for 34 grains of hardness. Consider using the http://qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm and continue to the calculator link at the bottom. If you are cash limited, you could get a softener sized to handle hardness and iron for now, and then maybe put an iron plus whatever filter in front of that later (helped by the fact that you allocated space in advance). There have been a lot of intense discussions on that. The iron filter first is significantly better. The softener-only works pretty well, but takes some more maintenance.
R4 I agree with your reccomendation 100%, in fact already have an older MacLean dual system in place and it is working, but is well over 20 years old and tired and needs to be upgraded, just do not have a lot of confidence so far in the water filtration service providers in my area, so will seek the best system/ design to suit my needs, prefer to have a more hands on approach/ management with the new system.
The KDF even for my uneducated mind, just did not add up, given there system, I can see for them it would indeed pencil out given the price they were asking for its installation, and the income security for its continued operation, needless to say I have moved on from that point.
My next step will be a complete water analyses in the next week or so, when it is returned I will share that on this thread and hopefully have a better understanding of what exactly will be needed and look forward to your insights and opinions, many thanks for your insights and links and helping straighten out my learning curve.
 

rfseabc

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Many companies simply dump KDF into the tank with other medias knowing that it will have little if any function, it is just marketing. If KDF is not applied correctly, it will either not function, fail, and can even cause some unique problems. If it is applied correctly, it is one of the better medias for its functionality. Unfortunately, the majority of companies do not know how to use it, or they use it for marketing purposes only.
The media guard works great for chlorine reduction, I would not recommend it for iron reduction though some companies do order them that way from us.
The picture shows my personal system (which is being replaced in a month with a new and improved version!) which has KDF applied correctly. The KD is in the smallest tank and is 30+ pounds of it. The small diameter tank allows for adequate backwashing, thought the frequency is not technically often enough. I try to overcome the infrequent backwashing by using longer backwash cycles than normal. All of my low tds regeneration water goes to irrigation so it is not really much of a loss.

I would recommend a properly designed iron reduction system with a properly sized softener. Not really complex,

View attachment 29606
WOW, nice looking system.
Mr. d,
I will be sending in a water sample in to a lab for analyses next week, upon its return would like to talk to you about some thoughts and recommendations/solutions. Thanks for your replies.
 

Bannerman

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Dittohead,

Not wishing to hijack this thread but as you've shown photos of your system here and over time in other threads, I'd be interested in a 'tour' of the various components especially with one valve apparently controlling the flow through four media tanks. It appears you have added components since December 2014.
 

ditttohead

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The new system will be similar, I will still be using 4 tanks, but I am getting rid of the center cross -overs. These have constantly had tiny dribble leaks since they were installed and I have replaced them several times in an effort to stop this annoyance. I just started the mock ups of the equipment and expect to install them before the end of summer.
 

Bannerman

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Dittohead,

Thank you for the clarifying diagram.

Are those crossovers commonly available on the market or are they an idea which you had fabricated? I've not seen them listed at my local water equipment supplier but again, they do not list the small piggyback tanks either.

You have the GAC filtering occurring after softening as opposed to prior. Are you not using a chlorinated supply? As you used 10% cross link resin, is there a benefit to de-chlorinating after the softener as opposed to before? Any concerns with flushing sodium through the GAC?

In your latest photo, I see what appear to be 2 RO membrane housings which were not present last December. I also see an In/Out tank beside the brine tank. I'm somewhat surprised for you to use a simple In/Out head. Is that the final carbon filter for the RO which I expect is fed from the pressure tank?
 
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ditttohead

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My RO is a simple membrane/permeate pump design, the main system is all the prefiltration I needed. The in/out tank is a DI system for the carwash final rinse and lab sink in my garage. Notice the LED (Resilite) resistivity sensor?

The inter-connects are a china made item they are not very good and I will be replacing them with a new design soon. The new system design will have a new Fleck valve with a totally new interconnecting design, I am still testing 2 different interconnecting devices, hopefully within a month I will have a finalized version. A 4 tank design really is unique, but no real benefit vs. a more traditional design, it is more of a way to test certain design and application limits.
The decision to go with the GAC/KDF after was due to the desire to use Clinoptilolite which should always be the first media since it is a sediment filter, it simply worked better for my application but the new design should allow some more flexibility that I did not have in the past.

I will post info on the new system once I get to the real work in a month or so after testing is complete.
 

rfseabc

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Hello again, I am back with my test results, so much for the one week time line, very interested in thoughts and opinions on my old and aging system. Looking to do the work and system management myself, any thoughts and opinions ?
 

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ditttohead

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moderate iron, excessive manganese, high turbidity...

Katalox light for the iron/manganense/turbidity. Softener chaser. I would recommend testing the water after the katalox and add some oxidant if needed. Your pH would indicate the KL should work well.

Sorry for the late reply, been travelling a lot last week, heading out of the country tomorrow for the rest of this week.
 
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