Clack WS1 Programming Recomendations

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by farmboy101, Jun 4, 2010.

  1. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    I posted here http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?36023-Help-About-ready-to-jump-off-a-Bridge%21%21%21

    asking about softeners etc and ended up going with a 2 cuft 60K Clack WS1 from Aquatell Canada based on a new ensuite shower and will be installing it this weekend.

    The info from the other thread was I have 8 gpg hardness + the iron and manganese = 18 gpg compensated hardness and 2 people = a need for 18K regenerated capacity, which gives you a metered/demand initiated regeneration on average once every 8 days (1000 gallons). The size of the softener, a 1.5 cuft probably, depends on the peak demand flow rate it has to treat and that is based on the type of fixtures in your two bathrooms; a large tub or multiple shower heads or any body sprays.

    The new shower will have one 8" showerhead and four body sprays each rated at 2.5 gpm for the ones we are thinking of using. I would like someone to look at the settings an see if they are correct and get the best salt use and overall water efficiency .

    These are the instructions that Aquatell say to program the WS1 at. The progrmming does not operate exactly like the instructions say but I am able to get all of the settings to display and change the values.

    Thanks


    1. Press and release “SET CLOCK†and use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the
    hour, then press NEXT. Now use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the minutes
    and then press NEXT. Please note that AM/PM toggles automatically as you
    scroll through the hours of the day.
    2. Once the time has been set correctly, press and hold the NEXT and DOWN button
    for 3 seconds until you see a flashing word in the top left corner of the screen.
    Press the UP button until the word “SOFTENING†is flashing. Then press
    NEXT.
    3. Use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the capacity of your water softener as per
    the chart below:
    i. 20,0000 grain softener = 20.0
    ii. 30,000 grain softener = 30.0
    iii. 45,000 grain softener = 45.0
    iv. 60,000 grain softener = 60.0
    Once the correct value is displayed press NEXT.
    4. For this step, you need to program the pounds of salt that are used per
    regeneration cycle for your softener. The number you program for this step
    depends on the size of softener you purchased:
    i. 20,000 grain softener = 6.0
    ii. 30,000 grain softener = 9.0
    iii. 45,000 grain softener = 12.0
    iv. 60,000 grain softener = 18.0
    Once this value has been entered press the NEXT button.
    5. Use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the flashing value to read “NORMAL†and
    then press NEXT
    6. Use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the flashing value to read “AUTo†and then
    press NEXT
    7. Use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the flashing value to read “PoST†and then
    press NEXT
    8. Use the UP and DOWN buttons to set the flashing value to read “dn†and then
    press NEXT
    9. Set the flashing value to read “NORMAL†and then press NEXT
    10. Press and hold the NEXT and UP buttons until you see “SET HARDNESS†at
    the top of the screen and a number is flashing.
    11. The flashing value is your water hardness. If there is iron in your water add 3
    grains per gallon for every 1 part per million (ppm) of iron present. Use the UP
    and DOWN buttons to set the number and then press NEXT.
    12. For the next value, set this to 14 if you use municipal water. If you use any other
    water source set this value to 7, and then press NEXT
    13. Now set the time of day for regeneration. This is typically set to a low water
    demand time such as 2:00 AM. Then press NEXT.
    Once the valve has been programmed you’ll be back at the home screen and should see the
    time. Pressing the NEXT button will toggle to the gallons of soft water remaining before
    the system needs to regenerate.

    IMPORTANT - you must now run a regeneration cycle to ensure that everything is working
    properly and that nothing is leaking. It is important that you watch the first regeneration
    cycle and inspect the system at each stage for leaks.

    1. From the home screen (shows either time or gallons remaining) press and hold the
    REGEN button. Hold it until you hear the gears of the valve turning. Once the
    gears stop turning you should see the word “BACKWASH†and a timer counting
    down. You should also have water exiting the drain line of the softener. Inspect
    the drain line connector at the valve for leaks and also make sure that the
    receptacle into which the drain is running, is able to handle the flow. You do not
    need to let this cycle run to completion. Once you’ve inspected the components,
    press the REGEN button again to advance to the next stage.
    2. You should now see the word “BRINE†at the bottom of the screen and numbers
    should be counting down. Open the brine tank and listen - you should hear air
    being sucked into the softener through the brine line. Press the “REGEN†button
    again.
    3. You should now see “BACKWASH†and numbers counting down. Once the
    gears have stopped turning, press the REGEN button again.
    4. You should now see “RINSE†and numbers counting down. Once the gears have
    stopped turning, press the REGEN button again.
    5. You should now see “FILL†and numbers counting down. Allow this stage to run
    for it’s full duration. While this stage is running check the brine line adapter on
    the softener valve for any leaks. You’ll also want to have a look inside the brine
    tank to make sure it’s filling with water. Also watch to make sure that the safety
    float in the brine tank does not stop the flow of water before the time has run
    down for this stage.
    6. You can now add a few bags of salt to your brine tank. Your water softener
    installation is now complete.
  2. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Based on the instructions you have posted it appears that this is the link to the Clack literature for the version of the valve you have:

    http://www.clackcorp.com/valve/Manuals/V3115_WS1_1.25.pdf

    You should do oem settings to program capacity to 18,000, salt to 5 lbs (2.5 lb/cubic foot of resin), I recommend "longer" because of the iron, Auto, Post, dn, normal + on 0.

    Do installer settings to set hardness to 18, day override to 8, regeneration time 2 AM (typical).
  3. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    Thanks Bob999, it took a little reading to see what you recommended and all looks straight forward as far as programming goes. I am not sure if the 18k capacity will be enough for the new shower and since i have the extra capacity should I set the value higher until I can log some usage to see what I am using on average??
    Also I have seen the value of 6 pounds of salt per cuft of resin as optimum. Does that value apply always?
  4. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    My suggestion is to go with the settings as recommended and check your usage over the first couple of weeks. If your usage is higher than 120 gallons per day then both the capacity and salt dose need to be changed.

    If you want to increase the settings now I recommend either 6 lbs salt and 21,000 or 7 lbs and 24,000.

    The relationship between salt dose and capacity is not linear (not withstanding the apparent linearity in the numbers I have given you) and is usually discussed in terms of lbs of salt per cubic foot of resin. Because you have iron it would generally be recommended that you use a salt dose of 6 lbs per cubic foot or more. However, because you have a 2 cubic foot softener and relatively low estimated usage using 6 lbs per cubic foot (12 lbs for your system) is not recommended because it would result in a much larger capacity than you will likely use within the 8 day period.

    There is a risk that the relatively low salt dose will not work well with your iron level. If problems should arise the proceedure to resolve it would be to do two back to back regenerations at max salt dose (30 lbs in your case) and then to reset the unit to a higher salt dose.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Farmboy... you didn't get a CS version. You have the original version and the salt dose efficiency setting is used to set the length of time of the various cycle positions of the regeneration with the exception of the refill cycle.

    You bought a 2.0 cuft and it has a constant SFR gpm of 13 gpm. Your new shower with 4 2.5 gpm body sprays and the 8" shower head is very likely going to use more than 13 gpm. I would have refused to sell you a smaller softener than a 2.5 cuft due to its 18 gpm SFR.

    You bought a Res Up resin cleaner, the most expensive type of resin cleaner and I wouldn't have sold you one. I would have told you how to use Iron Out once every so often instead.

    As the only guy here that has sold a Clack control valve (1411 over 6.5 yrs and 7 since Tue), I don't agree with how you are being told to program the softener.

    You don't use 8 gpm per foot of resin (the depth of the resin bed is what controls the constant SFR, not the width of the column). Nor do you use X lb per cuft for the salt dose unless you are talking the max lbs/cuft.

    You can see in the manual that Bob999 posted that the computer establishes the length of time for each cycle position of a regeneration based on the salt dose efficiency for the K of capacity you program. It isn't based on lbs/cuft. it's the actual efficiency grains/K of capacity.

    Program for 18K and because of the iron and manganese, 6 lbs of salt but, remember that as soon as you go over 13 gpm through the softener, it (2.0 cuft of resin) won't get all the hardness iron and manganese out of your water.

    The Res UP is very expensive and IMO not as good as Iron Out so I wouldn't use it, sell it on E-Bay or locally. On your way to bed once a month mix 1/3 cup of IO in 2 gals of warmish water and pour that into the water in the salt tank and push the Regen button in and let go and Regen Today will flash on the display. The regen will start at 2:00 AM.

    You should add 2-3 gallons of water now before the first regeneration because the instructions you have forget that your refill water volume will not be above the Air Check line on the brine pick up. Most of it will be below the line and unable to be used. That's because they didn't tell you to add water up to the height of the Air Check line on the brine pick up. So most of the Refill water will be below the Air Check line and not be able to be used. That means the first regen won't get the lbs of salt you want and all the 18K or what capacity you have used by the next regeneration won't be regenerated and you'll be running at a deficit from then on. Which can lead to hardness leakage.

    The instructions they sent you and the salt dose and capacity information parts are laughable but at least they told you how to do the dealer programming (it's not the OEM programming as Bob says), most internet dealers haven't been doing that.
  6. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Gary,

    I correctly referred to what the Clack Manual calls OEM Programming.

    Perhaps it has been a long time since you actually read a Clack Manual. I suggest you do so before posting that what I say is wrong.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes I know what and why you did it and since it is Clack's OEM/distributor's manual, they can call the section anything they want to and say anything in it they want to but, remember that the manual is for Clack's OEMs to use and unless the OEM is selling the control valve to the end user (which very few do), THE DEALER the OEM sells the valve to programs the control valve or... as we see in this case, the internet dealer tells his DIY customer how to do it and what data to use, because the OEM does not do it for him, the dealer, or his customers because the OEM has no way to come up with the data specific to their dealers' customers. IOWs, the dealer does not tell the OEM the water quality parameters or anything about the customer's daily water use when he orders the control valve/softener/filter.

    Now if you were a dealer or OEM you would have known all that and wouldn't be relying on teh manufacturer's manual. Which proves you can't get all this out of a book or manual, experience is the only way unless you believe what a person with experience tells you.

    But what about your statement of using the constant SFR of resin as 8 gpm/cuft? That tells Farmboy his 2.0 cuft softener has a constant SFR of 18 gpm when it doesn't.
  8. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Thank you for acknowledging your error. Now you need to work on your math.
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    [​IMG] Originally Posted by Gary Slusser [​IMG]
    Yes I know ....


    But what about your statement of using the constant SFR of resin as 8 gpm/cuft? That tells Farmboy his 2.0 cuft softener has a constant SFR of 18 gpm when it doesn't.


    Yes my typo of 18 gpm above should have been 16 gpm (8gpm/cuft * 2cuft =16gpm; I was thinking of the constant SFR of a 2.5cuft, 18 gpm) for his 2.0 cuft. So you are still wrong.

    The reason you are wrong is due to going from a 9" diameter tank for a 1.0 cuft to a 10" diameter tank for a 1.5 cuft to a 12" diameter tank for a 2.0 cuft etc. etc. you are spreading the column out without adding much depth to the column. It is the depth of the column that counts for constant SFR Bob, not the width. You can check that out with any resin manufacturer.

    So you stand corrected yet again.
  10. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Until you provide a souce for your numbers it is only your assertion and you assertion is not supported by resin manufacturers data that says the ability to treat is determined by the volume of the resin. The specification for resins is published as data per cubic foot of resin--not by bed depth (although that may be a consideration) and not by tank diameter or cross section.

    So put up your supporting data or we will conclude you are the one who is posting incorrect information.
  11. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Farmboy, in your first post in the previous thread you said: "Well Pump is a 5 GPM 1\2 hp, pressure set at 30-50, 3\4" copper to softener and from pump to tank. I think its a 15 or 20 gallon pressure tank."

    I don't see how that water supply is adequate for 4 body sprays (10 gpm) plus the 8" shower head. The pressure tank--assuming a bladder tank--has a draw down of approximately 7 gallons and once drawn down the water supply will be limited to the output of the pump.

    The good news is that the 2 cubic foot softener should have no problems handling the flow.
  12. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well lets run the numbers to see if that statement holds up.

    Res Care (same as Res Up) is available delivered to the door for $16 per gallon. The recommended maintenance use of Res Care is 1-2 oz per cubic foot so for a 2 cubic foot softener the cost per treatment is 25 - 50 cents.

    Iron Out purchased in a 5 lb container cost $12-13 at my local home store--assume $12--for 64 oz. Gary Slusser says use 1/3 cup (2 and 2/3 oz) per treatment plus 2 gallons of water which will disolve 6 lbs of salt. So the cost of the the Iron out treatment is 50 cents for the iron out and approximately 80 cents for the extra salt or a total cost of approximately $1.30.

    So once again the data shows Gary Slusser has posted incorrect information.

    Clarification: Iron Out is sold by weight with the most economical consumer package being the 5 lb container. The volume of 5 lbs of Iron Out is approximately 64 liquid oz.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2010
  13. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    Yes that is a very good point.

    Maybe the plumber will have some ideas as to what will work given the amount of water supply.

    Can you get lower flow higher pressure body sprays?

    I was going to install a 10 gpm pump in the well to replace the aging 12 year old 5 gpm. It would keep up better with the flow but make it run out of water faster.:p

    Maybe the body sprays and rain head could be seprated so they could not be used together. Like just the rain head by itself or 2 body sprays at a time, still have them but limit thier use??

    The shower is still at the design stage as I have just finished the demo of the former setup.
  14. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    WS1 014.jpg WS1 019.jpg WS1 022.jpg WS1 015.jpg WS1 018.jpg

    Here is what I have. I was told that it was the CS version. The tank is 12x52. The packing slip says WS1MI. Does that mean anything??


  15. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I know that Kohler makes 1.5 gpm body sprays. I suspect there are others.
  16. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    I get Pro Res Care by the gallon 5 minutes from home for $14 Canadian. The dispenser cost $22 with the softener. I dont think that it is very expensive as long as it works to keep the resin clean of iron etc.
  17. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    As I posted in the previous thread the difference between the various Clack WS1 heads is in the programming and programming features. If you go to the Clack web site there are manuals for each of the versions and you can see how the programming process and options are different. With the CS version of the electronics the times for the various elements of the regeneration cycle are chosen by entering a P code--P1 or P2 etc. The EE version of the valve provides the greatest programming flexibility because the time for each element of the regeneration is entered directly.

    Go here to see the various manuals:

    http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm
  18. farmboy101

    farmboy101 New Member

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    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    Thanks Gary for the information on prefilling the brine tank.
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The spec sheets show 1-5 gpm/cuft. You say 8 gpm/cuft, provide your source to substantiate that figure.
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    M1 means nothing to me. As I think I said, your programming says it is the original version. I can tell by the dn in the programming. The CS version manual on the Clack web site has CS on the front and the programming asks for a P number, yours doesn't.
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