Fleck 5800 SXT - Newbie Troubleshoot and Programming

[VuJD]

A new install by a dealer on I used on Yelp, installed a Upflow 2.5cu ft catalytic carbon and a Fleck 5800 SXT 2.5cu ft 80k water softener. From what I understand trying to learn from several post. I am having trouble with getting my water to be "soft / slippery". When it was first installed and running, the water felt very slippery / taste clean and mildly sweet. Now after a month, it lost its softness. I checked the SXT settings and of course, all were default settings, never programed.

So after Programming, running a regeneration cycle, it still does not feel soft, but regular tap / slightly salty.

Sticker Found under my SXT model
Sticker on brine line states Injector #1 and 0.25 GPM.
(From Manual) Pentair Serial #: 580006-004 - Paddle Wheel Meter, Downflow Softener, U.S. Power Supply, #1 Injector, 0.25 GPM BLFC
(Attached is ordering guide for SXT 5800 models)
My home main waterline PSI ~90, with post bibb ~85 PSI

5800SXT System
City Water
salt lb/cuft : 8.0
BLFC : 0.25 GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.5 / 80k
Raw hardness : 22.0 (compensated 1.12 / no iron)
Estimated gal/day 300.0 ; 60gal/person
Est days/regen ???


Fleck 5800SXT Settings (Current):
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800 ; Valve type
RF = dF1b
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 60 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 22 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = cr ;
DO = 14 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 3:45 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
Bw = 10 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 10 ; Rapid Rinse minutes [5...10]
BF = 27 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = P0.7 (3/4 paddle wheel downflow)

1st force regeneration, I have tried dF2b, C = 80k, B1 = 5, Bd = 60, B2 = 5, RR = 10, BF 27 resulted the water to be extremely salty.
2nd force regeneration, I followed that with a dF1b, C = 60k, BW 10, Bd = 60, RR 10, BF 27 resulted tap water consistency.

Much help appreciated! Thank you.

 

[Reach4]

Are you sure you have a paddle wheel and not a turbine? Since you cite the part number, I expect you are right on this. Is your countdown number decrementing by about 300 gallons per day?

Where did you get your hardness info?
This is similar to what you have...

5800SXT System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 8 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.25 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 22.0 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day 300.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen 8.1 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity


Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800.0 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash ***??
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 60.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 25 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 300 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 6 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 68 ; Brine draw minutes ***to rinse the salt better***
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes [5...10]
BF = 27 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = P0.7 ; flow meter
0 = 0.0 ; 0.0
0 = 0.0 ; 0.0

 

[Sponsor]

 

[VuJD]

Thank you Reach4 for your help,

Attached is photo copy of the model # and actual unit. I assume its a paddle wheel based on Model # sticker found under the unit and referenced it with the manual. I used another water softener ordering guide to confirm the size of the paddle being 3/4" paddle since the manual does not describe the size.

Countdown, I am not 100% sure, because currently it looks like its going in reverse the following day. (1818 to 1989) Not sure if its because I chose RS = cr and adjusting the variability.

My hardness info was attained from my city annual quality water reports. Ca 102ppm + Mg 18 ppm + Fe 0 = 329 mg/L or 19.2 grains. I factored from previous forum post an additional 1.12 resulting 21.5; ~ 22 grains.

Would increasing rapid rinse improve the salinity I am experiencing after regeneration? Or increasing the BD to 68 is the main culprit?
Stupid question, can you use the water i.e. shower while its regenerating? From what I believe so far, the water is being bypassed during regeneration, so you're receiving un softened water.

 

[Reach4]

1. I don't think all 5800sxts offer RS = cr. But if you do base it on experience, yes, the number can go both up and down.
2. The part of the BD time after the brine has all been sucked out is considered the slow rinse. The water moves through in a laminar (smooth rather than turbulent)flow. It is more water efficient than the fast rinse, which is turbulent. With turbulent flow, the water is getting mixed up as you are rinsing. So I would prefer the longer BD time, which uses water at about a 0.35 gpm rate vs fast rinse at 4.0 gpm with a 13 inch tank. If you still detect salt after raising the BD to 68, going to 80 minutes would not be a problem.

3. As you are thinking, during the cycles, other than BF, the valve puts itself into bypass. You have hard water available during that time. So good for flushing the occasional toilet visit, but not as good a time for taking a shower usually.

4. Yep, paddlewheel.

 

[Bannerman]

That is a paddle wheel flow meter so the FM=P0.7 setting is correct.

Municipal water will be typically obtained from multiple sources. The hardness numbers each municipality report are usually an average from all sources. Since your home maybe located closer to a water source with higher hardness than average, hardness should be tested at your location, using a titration type total hardness test kit such as the Hach 5B.

Because municipal hardness will often vary due to distribution system maintenance, fire hydrant usage and time of day water use, it is advisable to program your softener hardness setting at 3 GPG higher than the hardness level determined by onsite testing.

 

[VuJD]

1. I don't think all 5800sxts offer RS = cr. But if you do base it on experience, yes, the number can go both up and down.
2. The part of the BD time after the brine has all been sucked out is considered the slow rinse. The water moves through in a laminar (smooth rather than turbulent)flow. It is more water efficient than the fast rinse, which is turbulent. With turbulent flow, the water is getting mixed up as you are rinsing. So I would prefer the longer BD time, which uses water at about a 0.35 gpm rate vs fast rinse at 4.0 gpm with a 13 inch tank. If you still detect salt after raising the BD to 68, going to 80 minutes would not be a problem.

3. As you are thinking, during the cycles, other than BF, the valve puts itself into bypass. You have hard water available during that time. So good for flushing the occasional toilet visit, but not as good a time for taking a shower usually.

4. Yep, paddlewheel.

I have the option for cr, would cr the better choice? Or doesn't really matter.

Thank you for your explanation!!! I'll try a longer BD cycle and get back to you.

That is a paddle wheel flow meter so the FM=P0.7 setting is correct.

Municipal water will be typically obtained from multiple sources. The hardness numbers each municipality report are usually an average from all sources. Since your home maybe located closer to a water source with higher hardness than average, hardness should be tested at your location, using a titration type total hardness test kit such as the Hach 5B.

Because municipal hardness will often vary due to distribution system maintenance, fire hydrant usage and time of day water use, it is advisable to program your softener hardness setting at 3 GPG higher than the hardness level determined by onsite testing.

Ill try to get my hands on a Hach 5B, the delivery times I've been given range wildly 3-6 weeks.
Does adjusting the hardness factor make a dramatic difference?

Thank you both!!

 

[Reach4]

"I have the option for cr, would cr the better choice? Or doesn't really matter."
I got impatient with the automatic reserve, so I changed to a fixed reserve. If patient, the automatic method will have some good advantages, particularly if you tend to use more water on particular days of the week.

Let R represent the reserve. The valve starts the countdown at (C/H-R). When the count reaches zero, the softener continues to soften until RT (typically 2am); then it regenerates.

If you find that you have too much hardness leakage, you can raise H to cause the regen to happen earlier.

Note the Hach 5-B has an expiration date, but I think it continues to work well well beyond its expiration date.

The price of the kit has gone up considerably since I bought, but I guess that is true for most things.

 

[VuJD]

Welp , after speaking to the contractor who installed the water softener system. My 2.5cu ft 13x54 tank has actually 96k grain in it instead of the 80k standard . He states the extra resin doesn't affect its ability during regeneration or backwash, but I am skeptical. I would give them 5/5 on installation and copper pipe soldering +p trap for the brine drain, but oh my, I think they have little experience in the actual water softener systems.

There was a dramatic improvement after adjusting the settings to your recommendations, but would say subjectively it feels 70% softened in comparison when it was first installed. Can judge objectively when my Hach 5B comes in.

Would your recommended B1/B2, RR, and BD settings change if "theoretically" I have a 3.0cu ft tank with 96k resin? Probably also compensation for lack of space within the media tank?

I think ideally it would be best to treat it as a 2.5cu ft 80k resin tank and use a higher salt 8 lb/cuft to possibly 12/15 lb/cuft considering the brine tank are proportionately sized to the media tanks I assume. It would also explain the need for higher Bd times to remove the salinity after regenerations.

Please let me know your opinions. I rather rely on your experiences than my contractor and my own journey learning this new project of mine.

CURRENT SETTINGS
Standard 2.5cuft 80k	Standard 2.5cuft 80k	Standard 2.5cuft 80k	Theoretical 3.0cuft 96k	Theoretical 3.0cuft 96k
Salt 8 lbs/cuft	Salt 10 lbs/cuft	Salt 15 lbs/cuft	Salt 8 lbs/cuft	Salt 10 lbs/cuft
C = 60k	C = 65k	C = 75k	C = 72k	C = 75k
BF = 27	BF = 33.3	BF = 50	BF = 32	BF = 40

It looks best to match the 2.5cuft salt 10lbs/cuft to the theoretical 3.0cuft salt10lbs/cuft.

BF times are getting a bit extreme with higher salt content with a 0.25 BLFC.

Much appreciated!!

 

[Bannerman]

To provide sufficient freeboard space to permit the resin to be lifted, expanded and reclassified durning each Backwash cycle, your 13" X 54"tank should contain 2.5 ft3 resin + gravel under bedding, not 3.0 ft3. Overfilling the tank will reduce the freeboard space which will result in excessive resin loss to drain if no upper screen was installed. If an upper screen was installed, it is highly likely for the screen to eventually fail over time due to the resin being repeatedly forced against it.

For the best balance of hardness reduction efficiency, soft water quality and usable capacity, the usual recommendation is to program 24,000 grains per ft3 resin, and 8 lbs salt per ft3. As you are aware, for your 2.5 ft3 system, the Capacity setting will then be 60K grains and 27 minutes BF assuming the 0.25 GPM BLFC flow rate is correct. To verify the BLFC rate, you could temporarily disconnect the brine tube from the top of the brine tank, advance the controller to Brine Fill so as to measure the quantity of water exiting the tube in 60-seconds.

To provide sufficient rinse time to eliminate salinity, with the correct quantity of prepared brine in the brine tank, measure the amount of time required for the liquid brine to be transferred from the brine tank to the media tank. This should be approx 25% of the Brine Draw setting so if the brine is transferred in ~15-minutes, then 60-minutes will be the correct BD setting.

but would say subjectively it feels 70% softened in comparison when it was first installed.

Although the control valve will be programed to restore softening capacity when 60K grains has been depleted, the total hardness removal capacity for 2.5 ft3 resin is 80K grains. When the amount of depleted capacity exceeds the amount of capacity to be restored such as had occured when using the incorrect settings, then the depleted capacity for the unrestored resin will not be assisting with hardness removal and so there will be greater hardness leakage through the resin compared to when the entire resin capacity has been fully regenerated. To restore additional capacity to reduce hardness leakage, perform 2 regenerations back-to-back, with only ~1 hr delay following the first regen cycle. The 1-hr delay will provide opportunity for sufficient salt to be dissolved prior to the 2nd regen cycle.

 

[VuJD]

Follow up!

After adjusting program settings with Reach4 and Bannerman feedback, I was able to subjectively feel the slippery water and objectively test the water with a Hach 5B.
City Water ~ 18-19 grains
Softened Water ~ 1-2 grains


Changed
Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800.0 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash ***??
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 70.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 22 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 300 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 7 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 70 ; Brine draw minutes ***to rinse the salt better***
B2 = 5 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes [5...10]
BF = 32 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = P0.7 ; flow meter
0 = 0.0 ; 0.0
0 = 0.0 ; 0.0

Increased backwash and brine draw times to improve mixture and reduce salinity post regeneration.

Thank you all!!

 

[Bannerman]

C = 70.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains

BF = 32 ; Brine fill minutes

With a 0.25 GPM BLFC flow rate, then 32-minutes Brine Fill will result in 8 gallons water to enter the brine tank, which will cause 24 lbs salt to be dissolved.

24 lbs salt (=9.6 lbs per cubic foot) will be insufficient to regenerate 70,000 grains Capacity in 2.5 ft3 of resin.

For the best balance of usable capacity, soft water quality and salt efficiency, recommend programming the Capacity setting as 60 as that will need only 20 lbs salt (8 lbs/ft3), thereby requiring the BF setting to be 26.66 (27) minutes.

 

[VuJD]

With a 0.25 GPM BLFC flow rate, then 32-minutes Brine Fill will result in 8 gallons water to enter the brine tank, which will cause 24 lbs salt to be dissolved.

24 lbs salt (=9.6 lbs per cubic foot) will be insufficient to regenerate 70,000 grains Capacity in 2.5 ft3 of resin.

For the best balance of usable capacity, soft water quality and salt efficiency, recommend programming the Capacity setting as 60 as that will need only 20 lbs salt (8 lbs/ft3), thereby requiring the BF setting to be 26.66 (27) minutes.

I agree! Those were my original settings, but remember I am dealing with an odd predicament of a 96k in a 2.5cuft tank, so I chose the option of halfway between my two theoretical scenarios. I was imagining it landing somewhere between standard 2.5cuft 80k salt 10 lbs/cuft and the theoretical 3.0cuft 96k 8lbs/cuft. Not entirely sure what the actual salt use would be, sort of eyeballing it.

CURRENT SETTINGS
Standard 2.5cuft 80k	Standard 2.5cuft 80k	Standard 2.5cuft 80k	Theoretical 3.0cuft 96k	Theoretical 3.0cuft 96k
Salt 8 lbs/cuft	Salt 10 lbs/cuft	Salt 15 lbs/cuft	Salt 8 lbs/cuft	Salt 10 lbs/cuft
C = 60k	C = 65k	C = 75k	C = 72k	C = 75k
BF = 27	BF = 33.3	BF = 50	BF = 32	BF = 40

 

[Bannerman]

standard 2.5cuft 80k salt 10 lbs/cuft

10 lbs X 2.5 ft3 = 25 lbs salt to regenerate 65K grains Capacity. Salt Efficiency = 2,600 grains/lb

theoretical 3.0cuft 96k 8lbs/cuft.

While there will be insufficient space within a 13" X 54" tank to allow 3 ft3 resin to be properly regenerated (14" X 65" or larger required), for the sake of your capacity example, I'll play along.

8 lbs X 3 ft3 = 24 lbs salt would be correct to regenerate 72K grains Capacity for 3 ft3 resin. Salt Efficiency = 3,000 grains/lb.

Even if there is a larger quantity of resin or resin with higher capacity than 32K/ft3 within your 13 X 54 tank, that size tank will normally continue to be configured as containing 2.5 ft3 of regular 32K/ft3 resin.