Bottle trap disaster

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Maria Iolandi

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Hello. I bought two beautiful vanities but when my contractor opened them he told me that they would not fit our bathrooms because the existing bottle traps are too low (at 14 inches from the floor). I asked him to raise the bottle trap (ant the other tubes sticking out) and he says it can't be done. He wants me to return the vanities. I don't even know if they will take them back! And I worked super hard to find these vanities! I would like to find a solution. It looks like by your forum that it is actually possible to raise the bottle trap (I think it should be at about 24 inches from the ground to fit in the drawer opening). How can this be done? He says that the building won't allow it. Why shouldn't they? It is a New York coop building so they are strict. What can I say to let them do it? What are the possible problems? I would love to be informed and to discuss the thing from a knowledgeable point of view. I am a teacher and I don't know anything about construction. I would actually like to know if I can and if I should insist or if the contractor is right. I greatly appreciate your kind help!

k-9033.jpg
 
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Reach4

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The exit from the trap must be just a little higher than the pipe going into the wall.

If the interference is with drawer(s), some people will make a cutout in the rear of the drawers to clear the trap. A carpenter could add something to keep stuff falling out the back of the drawers, or you could just put things in that won't fall out. When the drawers are closed, nobody knows about the cutting.
 

WJcandee

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He says that the building won't allow it. Why shouldn't they? It is a New York coop building so they are strict.

Isn't your super involved in supervising/approving the installation? Usually, if any alternations to the building plumbing are involved (anything on the other side of the wall, which would likely be the case if you are raising anything on this side of the wall (i.e. you have to cut to wall to move the pipe)), you have to involve the building, and they will either allow it (and charge you for the time approving and supervising the changes) or they won't. The co-op association owns everything that isn't in your apartment (well, in a co-op they technically own the apartment, too; I guess it's better to say that they control everything not in your apartment). So anything that involves having to do something on the other side of the wall is a big, big deal. Anyway, you could talk to your super about what the issue is and what you want your contractor to do, and maybe he can give you some insight to the building's typical position on these things, and what it would cost. I'm guessing a LOT.

I'm surprised that bottle traps are even legal in New York City. It has one of the most conservative plumbing codes in the country. This is for obvious reasons: massive amounts of multi-unit buildings, where doing something hinky in one apartment can ruin the day of people elsewhere in the building, and plumbing practices that don't usually cause a problem (say, one in a thousand times there is a damaging leak), multiplied over literally millions of apartments, means that those practices will hurt many people. Combine this with a very old housing stock (due to rent control that makes it difficult to redevelop buildings on the schedule that would happen everywhere else), and you have a situation where a strict plumbing code (and an enforced plumbing code) is essential to good order.

In cases where you are just doing one thing at a time that requires plumbing, you are better off hiring a good licensed plumber than some "contractor" who may just use some minimally-trained non-plumber to execute installation of things, leading to unsatisfactory results. Maccarone Plumbing in Glen Cove has a big practice in New York City, and they are licensed and uber-professional. I use them all the time at our house in the country and at client homes, and I see them all the time in my NYC neighborhood (UES). They are expensive compared to what some handyman would want, but their prices are fair for solid, licensed plumbers, and they are going to do it once and take the time to do it right.

UPDATE: Well, thanks to years of participation in this forum, my instincts as to things have become pretty-good. The NYC Plumbing Code expressly prohibits bottle traps. NYC Plumbing Code (2014), Section PC 1002.3(2). I don't understand from your description what needs to be done, but it may be also that because the vertical fall from the sink outlet to the weir of the existing bottle trap would be more than 24", he can't/won't just extend it. More likely, he knows bottle traps are illegal, and doesn't want to involve the building because the first thing the super will say is "bottle traps are illegal and you have to also remove the existing one". http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/building...tors_and_Separators.pdf&section=conscode_2014

Bottom line, just because your vanities are "beautiful" doesn't mean that they are appropriate for your location, or even legal for it.
 
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rjbphd

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Why are they illegal? Just because the codes say so ? If so, then why are they widely made, especially by Kohler and others..? ?
 

Reach4

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Why are they illegal? Just because the codes say so ? If so, then why are they widely made, especially by Kohler and others..? ?

The concern was that the hidden separation could corrode and bypass the trap. The thinking was that drain water spilling on the floor from corrosion in a P trap would be attended to, but sewer gas could be ignored or fixing postponed for long periods.

Codes now usually permit bottle traps if the separation is plastic, as it is in the " inner tube" in the Kohler bottle traps.
en_2915_02245.png


http://helptopics.us.kohler.com/link/portal/5641/5712/Article/888/Bottle-Trap-Drain

Some places like to keep old code items in place for various reasons. I imagine a city that allowing new steel water lines but not allowing PEX, poly, CPVC, or PVC water lines. Imagine a city that allowed new lead water service lines until a federal ban.
 

Maria Iolandi

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Thank you so much to all of you! You are very kind! It is going to cost me a lot to give them back. . . I will try to ask again to the contractor why the traps can't be raised. It is not a problem of the wall because it is between 2 bathrooms (both in our apartment). And the wall is being opened. I would want both drains to be raised. . .(back to back to each other). I don't see why they can't put an extension to make the trap to come out at 24 inches from the floor, instead that at 14 inches. . . Thank you all again for your time!
 

hj

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quote; I don't see why they can't put an extension to make the trap to come out at 24 inches from the floor, instead that at 14 inches. .

That is because you see everything as having a "simple" solution, without regard to the "real world" requirements. A similar "easy solution" would be to cut off the bottoms of the cabinets so the drain is higher above the floor of it.
 

Terry

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The venting is even with the trap arm. When you raise the pipe above the venting, it doesn't break the siphon of the water in the trap. You trap the water to prevent all those nice smelly odors from floating up into your unit. That is why S traps are ilegal.
When the water drains, is siphons water from the trap. Your plumber knows this.

If the wall is open, it may be possible to raise the plumbing and keep the venting intact. A picture would help here.

k-9033-cp-01.jpg
 
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Maria Iolandi

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Well, I admit I don't know anything about plumbing. I haven't spoken with the plumber. I only deal with the contractors who hires the plumber. The contractor didn't tell me that this can't be done, but just that the building doesn't want to allow it. And I don't know what is the problem for them. Do you have an idea what the motives might be? Explained in lay terms. . . I must tell you that this is difficult for me to follow since I don't know the terminology. To cut the bottom of the vanity would be possible but since it is a wall mounted vanity the tube will probably stick out from the bottom and it will show in a very strange way. And for the other vanity the contractor told me that cutting it is completely impossible. If moving a trap from its regular place is such a problem why are these vanitites even sold in the US with no warning of an unusual measurements on the back? I thought they did it because to raise the trap would not be a problem . . .
 

hj

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Manufacturers do NOT care about any possible "problems". They let the installers deal with those. All they are concerned about is how their product looks and whether anyone will buy it. There are MANY items sold that are NOT "approved" by the building codes, but that is the customer's problem, not theirs.
 

Reach4

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Photo?
Do you have an idea what the motives might be? Explained in lay terms. . . I must tell you that this is difficult for me to follow since I don't know the terminology.
Imagine trying to follow without a picture of what exists.
 

WJcandee

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For us to be helpful, it would really behoove you to take your smartphone and shoot a photo or two of what exists now, focusing on the plumbing. Then use the browser on your phone to upload the photos to a post, either a new one or while editing an existing post. Use the "upload a file" button that comes up when you start writing. It's easy!!
 

Flapper

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For us to be helpful, it would really behoove you to take your smartphone and shoot a photo or two of what exists now, focusing on the plumbing. Then use the browser on your phone to upload the photos to a post, either a new one or while editing an existing post. Use the "upload a file" button that comes up when you start writing. It's easy!!
Usually the image is too big so you have to go to an image hosting site but then when you use a different tab, the tab of the forums shuts down so when you come back, you loose your post and have to start over... plus the other pain of a laggy crappy moblie browser on a laggy crappy mobile device... aggh!
 
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