Airless Water Valve, Paying too much for water?

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by rmelo99, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. rmelo99

    rmelo99 Network Engineer

    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    [ATTACH]12562[/ATTACH]

    www.airlessvalve.com

    Is this too good to be true? Just saw the commercial on TV

    I have several rental units and water bills are always a sore subject.

    Anyone have any experience with this or any experience that can support these "claims".

    Paying for air...would think somebody would have thought of this sooner...especially being that most utilities are government regulated.

    And for the pros who will have a field day with my post

    airless_fitting.jpg
    -yes it's a piece of plastic they are having you replace a brass coupling with
    -yes no meter-house connections looks like the video/pics
    -yes many DIYers will break something trying to put these in
    -yes many DIYers will discover their Mains don't really shutoff as the video shows

    Look on the plus side...more work for the plumbers! You have to admit their site is very convincing...any takers?

    [video=youtube;UDf8SaMHmoo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDf8SaMHmoo[/video]

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2011
  2. TechBob

    TechBob New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Texas / BC
    Sounds too good to be true

    ... which usually means it isn't true. Not a "Pro", but the ad made me try to look it up, too (and came across this post). No info on the product at all + plus ambiguous CV's on web site make me suspicious. I'm guessing it's some sort of flow restriction device - that would cut down the amount of water used at the cost of reduced pressure? Interesting to hear from someone who's seen one...
  3. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,815
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    airless valve

    This device belongs on the late night TV "infomercials". There is nothing in the valve to "compress" the air, and there are no "pockets of air" for it to compress. If it did "compress" the air, it would still have to go through the water meter because it has no way to get rid of it. Finally, to NOT register these imaginary air pockets, the device would have to be installed ahead of the water meter, and normally ANYONE tampering with a connection at that point could be subject to a healthy, or unhealthy, fine. And as far as someone thinking of it sooner, they did, they called it "snake oil" and have been selling things like that since the Pilgrims arrived. The thing they forgot to do was attach a couple of magnets to it and call it a air elimination, saltless water softener.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2010
  4. rmelo99

    rmelo99 Network Engineer

    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Being after the meter I think is what first raised my suspicions. If it's already past through the meter than it already has been read!

    I could be wrong but I don't think there is such a think as "net metering" on water meters!

    I did see this on an "infomercial". Must be fairly new becase google and yahoo both have almost no information on it!.

    I envision them selling lots of these parts and being subjected to suits. I don't see any mention of them telling consumers that a professional plumber should be doing this. I think this kind of work is out of the scope the average homeowner.

    Plus it's probably cheap China plastic. You see all the issues with Pex and they expect you to put this cheapy plastic right after your meter!
  5. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

    Messages:
    711
    Location:
    VA
    It is BS. Some of it is pretty funny.

    1. The "certificate of listing" just basically says it is safe for being in contact with drinking water.

    2. All of the links to the "Engineered Laboratory Test Report" all point to the same document! I guess they figure if they put several links with different titles, people will say "Look at all of this scientific data!". The test report is only a single page summary which doesn't even show how the test was performed. In addition, the test was only done under the following conditions:

    1. air only test. Sure this is really representative of a water meter. Yeah, right. Not only that, it say that it reduced the air flow measured by 38%. This means that it was just a restriction. It is not that you still got 100% flow in the meter, but measured 62% flow..your flow was just cut to 62% The air didn't magically disappear.

    2. water main break simulation (air + water). Not like this is an everyday event. But, the next time there is a water main break, just think..the error in the meter will drop from 38% to 14%. I'm sure you'll save a bundle there!

    If there was air in the water, you would need to separate it before the meter as hj mentioned. The water is at 80 psi (or whatever) and any air that is in there is compressed a fair amount. You may get a larger volume at the faucet, but the volume is much less at the meter.

    I don't know how much air could be disolved in water offhand, but it is very small. To give you an idea, a rapid boiling pot of water may be 10%-15% volume of voids. So, there you go.
  6. bobby123

    bobby123 New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Miami
    IT IS TRUE. The "Airless Water Valve" really works. It will defenitly save you money on your water bill. I use it and it works. Visit the website and check out the video, it explains it all. We can all use some extra cash nowadays.

    http://www.airlessvalve.com/

    Good day to all.
  7. rmelo99

    rmelo99 Network Engineer

    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Guess it was just a matter of time before one of the Vendor jerkies came onto the forum claiming how great their product is!

    Do you think there are people who can't figure out the one post wonders aren't spammers?
  8. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    THis is in the same category as "power factor correction" which is supposed to reduce your electric bill. That scam pops up at regular intervals.
    One thing you can be sure of ....if either of these really worked, the utility company would make it illegal and come and rip it out of your property!
  9. FloridaOrange

    FloridaOrange Plumbing Designer

    Messages:
    1,317
    Location:
    SW Florida

    Looks like they've got that covered. :rolleyes:
  10. bobby123

    bobby123 New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Miami
    Tasting the pudding

    :) :D Never claimed to say how great it was, but just that it works. But the proof is in the pudding try it before you begin to criticize someones product. "Airless Water Valve" . Have a great weekend.

    http://www.airlessvalve.com/
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,815
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    testimonial

    Bobby123. Great, now they have TWO testimonials as to the valves effectiveness. And BOTH of them are from you. DO you also write testimonals as to how good and effective magnetic water softeners are? What is your basis for saying it works, saves money, and is effective. Please give us your credentials and testing laboratory experience. EVERY infomercial has SCADS of people telling how the product is the greatest thing since sex and popcorn, but NO real data to back it up. Electric companies would LOVE to have a product that reduces electrical usage so they do not have to build new plants. Here, they are trying to get customers to install electric solar panels to eliminate some of the load on the utility, and even "sell back" any excess capacity to the power company.
  12. nukeman

    nukeman Nuclear Engineer

    Messages:
    711
    Location:
    VA
    As an engineer/physics guy (who happens to hold a PhD), I look into the details of how things work and if a product did what it claimed (like this one), would it be physically possible for it to meet its claims.

    Like many products, they wave their hands on how it works, but do not go into details. The reason is that the details show that it can't possibly support the claims that are made. In addition, they talk about their engineers have 30 years combined experience. They have two engineers. One engineer they talk about how many projects this guy has worked on and how many places he has worked for. This tells me that he can't hold a job. He probably works for some place for 6 months before they can him and he moves on to the next place.

    They say that up to 40% of your water is actually air. That's funny since solubility limits do not allow for that much air to be dissolved in water. If you had 40% volume in air, you would have huge air pockets in your lines at all times and your faucets would spit at you like they do after you have had the water shutoff and the lines drained down. People do not realize what 40% air in water looks like. At this point, it is not little bubbles like boiling a pot of water. At 40%, you are probably in the "slug flow" region. Here, bubble are long and shaped like a bullet. They fill the diameter of the pipe with only a thin film of water between the bubble and the wall of the pipe. The actual region depends on how fast the gas/liquid are moving. You would see stratified (air on top) if the flow was slow/stopped.

    [​IMG]

    I'll run a calc to show how much water can be dissolved in water you are looking at a couple % max. The real number is even lower since some space is taken up with chlorine and minerals.

    I want to see inside of this thing. From the pics that I have seen, it looks like a check vavle or something.
  13. FloridaOrange

    FloridaOrange Plumbing Designer

    Messages:
    1,317
    Location:
    SW Florida
    Not to mention the point you brought up previously about the water meter. I don't know of any city that allows a homeowner to mess with the meter and the city boys would laugh thier asses off if you had them come out to temporarily disconnect the meter to put one of these things in.
  14. rmelo99

    rmelo99 Network Engineer

    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Their business model may rely less on physics and engineering and more on principals from one of my hometown showmen P.T. Barnum.

    "There's a sucker born every minute"
  15. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Yo Bobby. I note your address is Miami, same address as the airless valve company? Hmmm.

    It's a rip off, I know it and you know it. You and your company are little more than con artists. Go somewhere else and push you crap.
  16. rmelo99

    rmelo99 Network Engineer

    Messages:
    349
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I can say when I first googled this there wasn't anything out there about it.

    Now I see this thread is #3 hit behind the first 2 that are the product site.

    Hopefully we can help consumers who "search" for more information about this become more informed before leaping towards purchasing it.
  17. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Unfortunately this is how these shysters operate. They know that if they post on these sites it will show up on the search engines.
  18. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,815
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    air

    IF water was 40% air, then water heater expansion tanks would not be needed because that much air in the water would make it compressible. The same factor would make water hammer shock absorbers unnecessisary because that same air would do the pressure wave absorbing. Many companies, most on TV, but also in magazines and web sites, rely on "testimonials" because they are easier to obtain than solid scientific proof the item, whatever it is, works. Weight loss ads show how much a person has lost and how easy it was, but then in little letters is says the results are not typical. Vitamins and supplements tell how you can use them to help with various ailments, but then say, "this product does not treat, prevent, or cure ANY DISEASE". When someone is being compensated to give a testimonial, they will say anything they are told to.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
  19. RainbowRider

    RainbowRider New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Tualatin, Oregon
    Airless H2O Valve

    I recently saw this commercial. Below is an explanation from their site as to how this valve works:

    In simple terms, the AirLessâ„¢ valve works by compressing the air accumulated in pipes before reaching your meter. This is attainable because air molecules are easily compressed. In their compressed stage, they adhere to water molecules. This mixture then flows through the meter, leaving the air undetected.

    I do not understand as the both the commercial and the site, state that the valve is installed after the Water Meter, but in their explanation of How It Works section of their site, they state, "compressing the air accumulated in pipes before reaching your meter."

    Therefore it follows that to be effective it must be installed before the water reached the meter. Therefore, unless your water suppliers allow this, the savings are bogus.
  20. ryanh572

    ryanh572 New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    amherst,ma
    none of you have tryed it right

    its not a flow restriction device, it doesn't effect water pressure and it attaches to the consumers end of the meter we have it installed in quite a few locations and it works better than advertised , if u dont believe it buy one for $40 and install it after all its a simple installation, if after that u dont believe it then fine but it works and has been in use for quite a while it just went commercial at the 1st of the year. no one believes anything untill they see for themselves
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