Advice on my situation of sizing water softener

[Treeman]

What I learned as a diy layperson is that you reach a point that you get dialed in very close to optimum, and then there are a few choices that are just a battle of opinions. Even with Gary Slusser stirring the pot a few years back, you guys are good at getting us dialed in close and avoiding huge mistakes like the OP's installer recommending that he set his softener up for 64K.

I.E., in my case (1ppm iron), I had to decide between many recommendations to recharge every 4-5 days vs. the more relaxed consensus here that 7-8 days is o.k. IF you manage your resin (Iron out, Res Care,etc.).

Some companies/states (CA) are really pushing 6 lb./cu. ft. or even less to reduce salt use. Here, the consensus leans more toward 8 lb. minimum.

The balance of professional and expert diy advice here is superb. That the pros here don't always take the "holier than thou diyer's" like on many sites is wonderful. In return, we diyers need to respect the experience, expertise, and overhead/education investment of the pros and hire them appropriately. Old man wisdom infusion completed.

 

[ditttohead]

Thanks for the incite. And... California actually requires 4 pounds or less per ft3 to meet their specs. 8 Pounds tends to give the lowest complaint rate as well as maintains an acceptable performance/quality efficiency rate.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Loiwin]

I just tested my hardness (it’s only been 1 day) and with the Hach kit it reads 1 gpg. What is appropriate hardness after installing the softener? Should I be expecting 0 gpg?

I’m assuming after a few days when pipes are clean I may experience even softer water? Thank you..

 

[Reach4]

I just tested my hardness (it’s only been 1 day) and with the Hach kit it reads 1 gpg. What is appropriate hardness after installing the softener? Should I be expecting 0 gpg?

I don't know if you will get 0 drop blue. I think your idea of the piping providing a little residual hardness makes sense.

Note that the hardness lag will be longer in the hot water due to the tank.

 

[Bannerman]

With regard to your questions regarding RO, many of us here utilize RO for our household drinking water. I do utilize a remineralizing filter but I don't rely on that for providing an appropriate amount of minerals for health, but more to adjust the pH of the product water so it is not as acidic.

There are many inexpensive systems from offshore which utilize low quality components. If they fail, they may flood your home but as the manufacturer is offshore, the manufacturer probably won't standby their product or assist you with your damages.

There are systems which use quality and tested components such as produced by Omnipure, Pentek, 3M and others.

For specific RO related questions, suggest starting a new thread in this forum.

 

[Loiwin]

I don't know if you will get 0 drop blue. I think your idea of the piping providing a little residual hardness makes sense. View attachment 47961

Note that the hardness lag will be longer in the hot water due to the tank.

Thanks reach, is 1 gpg acceptable? Or in a few days I should be looking for 0 gpg? The solution does turn purple when I pour the compound in the water, then blue with 1 drop of solution, using Hach test kit. Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Thanks reach, is 1 gpg acceptable?

It is to me, but the Hach 5b test has 1 grain (18.1 ppm) granularity. The Hach HA-71A Test Kit includes a low-range test with 1 ppm granularity if you want to study this.

I have seen my water turn blue before drops, although swirling can sometimes make the initial blue appearance go away.

Try testing some distilled water to see the limit.

 

[Bannerman]

avoiding huge mistakes like the OP's installer recommending that he set his softener up for 64K.

To clarify, although the installer recommended using the softener's total capacity, the 6.5 lb/cuft salt setting he programmed, would not restore that capacity.

Similar to your car that might achieve 25 mpg so you might travel 600 miles under ideal conditions from a full 25 gallon tank before running out, you would not expect to travel another 600 miles after the first tank is consumed and you only add 6 gallons to the tank. Salt is the softener's 'fuel' so the salt dose determines the 'travel distance' (amount of capacity to be used and regenerated on an ongoing basis).

You mention removing 1 ppm of iron with your softener. While a softener can be effective for removing some iron, a softener is not usually the best or most efficient method. Each 1 ppm iron is equivalent to 85.5 ppm (5 gpg) hardness. Without ongoing regular maintenance and less efficient settings as you mentioned, iron can eventually foul the resin making it less effective for hardness removal.

Not to get into too many specifics as there are many variables to water conditions, you may wish to investigate and compare the benefits to a dedicated iron removal system or other treatment method for your specific water conditions vs only using a softener.

 

[Loiwin]

To clarify, although the installer recommended using the softener's total capacity, the 6.5 lb/cuft salt setting he programmed, would not restore that capacity.

Similar to your car that might achieve 25 mpg so you might travel 600 miles under ideal conditions from a full 25 gallon tank before running out, you would not expect to travel another 600 miles after the first tank is consumed and you only add 6 gallons to the tank. Salt is the softener's 'fuel' so the salt dose determines the 'travel distance' (amount of capacity to be used and regenerated on an ongoing basis).

You mention removing 1 ppm of iron with your softener. While a softener can be effective for removing some iron, a softener is not usually the best or most efficient method. Each 1 ppm iron is equivalent to 85.5 ppm (5 gpg) hardness. Without ongoing regular maintenance and less efficient settings as you mentioned, iron can eventually foul the resin making it less effective for hardness removal.

Not to get into too many specifics as there are many variables to water conditions, you may wish to investigate and compare the benefits to a dedicated iron removal system or other treatment method for your specific water conditions vs only using a softener.

Hey bannerman, I Just had a question whether my result of 1 gpg of hardness is acceptable after 1 day of softened water, or if in a few days I should absolutely expect to see 0 gpg, and if I’m not then my water isn’t being softened as expected.

 

[Loiwin]

Reading the manual for a Manual regeneration, it says to keep pressing the cycle button to advance the steps to brine fill. Do I want to run the softener through all the cycles? BW, RR, BF etc?

I just added bleach as described above. Thanks

After running a regneration the water level is about 6 inches above the salt. Is this normal?

 

[Reach4]

Reading the manual for a Manual regeneration, it says to keep pressing the cycle button to advance the steps to brine fill. Do I want to run the softener through all the cycles? BW, RR, BF etc?

I think so. The bleach will enter the resin tank during BF.

Directions say

1. Dosage

A. Polystyrene resin; 1.2 fluid ounce (35.5 ml) per cubic foot.
B. Non-resinous exchangers; 0.8 fluid ounce (23.7 ml) per cubic foot.​

2. Salt tank softeners

A. Backwash the softener and add the required amount of hypochlorite solution to the well of the salt tank. The salt tank should have water in it to permit the solution to be carried into the softener.
B. Proceed with the normal recharge.​

 

[Loiwin]

I think so. The bleach will enter the resin tank during BF.

Directions say

1. Dosage

A. Polystyrene resin; 1.2 fluid ounce (35.5 ml) per cubic foot.
B. Non-resinous exchangers; 0.8 fluid ounce (23.7 ml) per cubic foot.​

2. Salt tank softeners

A. Backwash the softener and add the required amount of hypochlorite solution to the well of the salt tank. The salt tank should have water in it to permit the solution to be carried into the softener.
B. Proceed with the normal recharge.​

When I do a manual regeneration, after I hold the cycle button down for 5 seconds, do I let the softener run through all the processes (5 min BW, 60 mins BD, 5 min RR, 11 minute BF? Or so I skip through all the cycles? I’m confused bc the manual says to keep pressing the cycle button. Thanks

 

[Reach4]

When I do a manual regeneration, after I hold the cycle button down for 5 seconds, do I let the softener run through all the processes (5 min BW, 60 mins BD, 5 min RR, 11 minute BF? Or so I skip through all the cycles? I’m confused bc the manual says to keep pressing the cycle button. Thanks

I don't find it clear what procedure they are suggesting for the sanitizing. I would put the chlorine bleach and some water in. Maybe let it sit for an hour or two. Maybe don't wait at all. I don't have an opinion either way. I would then just press and hold until the cycle starts, and go away for an hour or so. Maybe somebody has a different procedure to suggest.

An alternative, it seems to me, is to put the bleach into the brine tank. Poke the button momentarily, and let the regeneration happen at 2am.

 

[Loiwin]

I don't find it clear what procedure they are suggesting for the sanitizing. I would put the chlorine bleach and some water in. Maybe let it sit for an hour or two. Maybe don't wait at all. I don't have an opinion either way. I would then just press and hold until the cycle starts, and go away for an hour or so. Maybe somebody has a different procedure to suggest.

An alternative, it seems to me, is to put the bleach into the brine tank. Poke the button momentarily, and let the regeneration happen at 2am.

Thanks reach,

My question is, a total regeneration is allowing the softener to go through completely all stages of BW, BD, RR, BF?

Am I able to do 2 regenerations back to back? I just did a regeneration however skipped through most steps and only let brine fill complete (read this online). Is this ok?

Also, after regeneration the water is a lot higher than the salt now. Is this normal?

 

[Reach4]

My question is, a total regeneration is allowing the softener to go through completely all stages of BW, BD, RR, BF?

I would.

Am I able to do 2 regenerations back to back? I just did a regeneration however skipped through most steps and only let brine fill complete (read this online). Is this ok?

Also, after regeneration the water is a lot higher than the salt now. Is this normal?

It is the BD that brings the bleach and water in. If I somewhere said BF does that, I messed up.

It is the BF that refills the tank. If you do a BF without a BD, the brine tank will get too much water.

 

[Loiwin]

I would.

It is the BD that brings the bleach and water in. If I somewhere said BF does that, I messed up.

It is the BF that refills the tank. If you do a BF without a BD, the brine tank will get too much water.

So I guess that’s what happened. I will do another regeneration, is that ok if I do it within 30 mins of each other? Did I mess up my softener by skipping through to the BF?

I will let the softener complete all cycles, will this correct the water level? What should I do if water is still 6 inches above salt?

 

[Reach4]

So I guess that’s what happened. I will do another regeneration, is that ok if I do it within 30 mins of each other?

Yes. There is a possibility that the extra brine will not be rinsed away, leaving a little salt in the first softened water, but it may not even be noticeable.

Did I mess up my softener by skipping through to the BF?

No.

I will let the softener complete all cycles, will this correct the water level? What should I do if water is still 6 inches above salt?

I don't think that will happen. If it does, you will troubleshoot.

 

[Loiwin]

Well, I just ran a second regeneration. The tank still has a smell of bleach to it. I let all the processes complete except the BF, which was set on 11 minutes, I stopped it at about 5 minutes remaining.

The salt is about 1 inch or so above the water line which I’ve read is what you want. The salt level is right under about 1/2 full of the tank.

Is this ok and how it should be? If it regenerate in 1 month and allow the fill 11 minute BF, won’t the water level be significantly over the salt next time?

Can I add a little more salt now or next time to be slightly over the water line? I’m just not sure how it will be the next time it regenerates. If the salt level keeps going down with subqsequent 11 BF each time, wont there just be more water with each regneration?

I’ve attached a photo of the tank. Thanks!

 

[Bannerman]

I let all the processes complete except the BF, which was set on 11 minutes, I stopped it at about 5 minutes remaining

You shouldn't stop BF before the programmed time as you have now reduced the amount of water in the brine tank so that there won't be enough brine produced to regenerate the capacity used between now and the next regeneration cycle.

When advised to perform a manual regeneration, that means the entire regeneration cycle, not part. There was too much liquid in the brine tank because you did not allow the controller to draw out the brine but advanced directly to Brine Fill which only added more water to the liquid already in the brine tank. The extra liquid will be all drawn during the next regeneration cycle IF you allow that to occur without interference.

It's not surprising there is an odor of chlorine in the brine tank after a FULL regeneration as there will be a portion of brine fluid always remaining below the air check port in the brine tank. The odor will gradually reduce through dilution when additional regeneration cycles occur. As your water is supplied by the municipality, there is also a residual amount of chlorine within the water supply which you will likely be able to smell.

Stop worrying about the liquid level compared to the salt height. You can fill the brine tank to the top with salt without concern as the system should operate reliably for many years without your involvement except for only periodically adding salt.

If your plumbing has been used for some time without a softener, there maybe some scale in the lines which is now being dissolved by the soft water. This may cause the hardness reading to be slightly elevated as you are finding. The softener is obviously working as the outgoing water is significantly softer than the water entering. Suggest using the system as it is and test the output after the unit has automatically regenerated a few times which will likely be in a month or two.

 

[Loiwin]

You shouldn't stop BF before the programmed time as you have now reduced the amount of water in the brine tank so that there won't be enough brine produced to regenerate the capacity used between now and the next regeneration cycle.

When advised to perform a manual regeneration, that means the entire regeneration cycle, not part. There was too much liquid in the brine tank because you did not allow the controller to draw out the brine but advanced directly to Brine Fill which only added more water to the liquid already in the brine tank. The extra liquid will be all drawn during the next regeneration cycle IF you allow that to occur without interference.

Stop worrying about the liquid level compared to the salt height. You can fill the brine tank to the top with salt without concern as the system should operate reliably for many years without your involvement except for only periodically adding salt.

If your plumbing has been used for some time without a softener, there maybe some scale in the lines which is now being dissolved by the soft water. This may cause the hardness reading to be slightly elevated as you are finding. The softener is obviously working as the outgoing water is significantly softer than the water entering. Suggest using the system as it is and test the output after the unit has automatically regenerated a few times which will likely be in a month or two.

Thank you for this information. Since I stopped an 11 minute BF at about half way, should I add anymore water to the tank now? Should I not add water and do a regneration now?

So you are saying I don’t have to worry about salt to water ratio, but they say to keep some salt above the water line, if I always have an 11 minute BF which fills to about half the tank full, does that mean I always have to have salt over 1/2 full in the tank to still be over the water?

My installer said when the salt is about 4 inches from the bottom to throw about 2 bags in

For example... let’s say after a few months after a few regenerations the salt is below the water line (1/2 tank full of water) but there’s still a good amount of salt (>1/4 full), do I always have to add more salt to stay above the water line? Thank you...