Advice on my situation of sizing water softener
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Bannerman
Well-Known Member
Depends on who you hire. If you hire a plumber, he/she may have no prior water treatment experience and may not have any idea how to program the unit. An alternate option would be to hire an installer from a local water treatment company as that person should understand how the system is to operate but may not appreciate that you didn't buy it from his company. You could also choose to install and program it yourself.
Not sure why you would want to manually regenerate as the system is automatic and will regenerate when required. One possible exception would be when multiple house guests are expected to arrive when the softener is almost due to regenerate. The additional water use may exceed the remaining capacity and reserve before regeneration will take place at 2am so you may choose to initiate an early manual regeneration cycle to ensure adequate soft water will be available when needed.
Depends on the seller of the equipment. Some ship their systems with gravel, resin the bottom basket and riser already in place with the control valve on the tank wheras others, ship the components separately with an expectation you the customer will be assembling it.
Online sales is very competitive so dealers often look for ways to be cheaper than the next guy. As shipping is usually included, gravel is heavy and adds to the shipping cost so some will claim gravel is not needed to reduce their costs. As there are benefits and no drawbacks to a gravel underbed, insist that gravel is to be included if they say it is not.
Some online dealers who do not include gravel will then supply a shorter tank which again saves them a few $. The appropriate tank size for 1.5 cuft is 10" X 54" whereas for 2 cuft, it is 12" X 52". These sizes allow for a gravel underbed while also providing adequate empty space above the resin (freeboard) for the resin to expand during BackWash.
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With a 2 cf softener, am I able to try to soften less than 40k grains? For example, am I able to try to soften 30000k instead? Which salt dose would I choose in this case and are there any drawbacks? Thanks
In http://www.cwwltd.com/content/pdf/Purolite-C100-Operating-Data.pdf and http://www.filterwater.com/t-water_softener_cation_resin.aspx figure 3 illustrates salt dose vs capacity. So that would make it seem that the leaner the better. But also see figure 5 -- hardness leakage. That is the main downside of too little salt for regen.
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i appreciate the information it’s probably past my scope of understanding lol, I was just curious bc using 12 pounds of salt in a 2 cf will yield 40,000 grains softened, however ny question is if I just want 30,000 grains from a 2 cf, how much salt dose will I use and is it detrimental to try to get only 30,000 grains from a 2 cf?
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
We seem to be going in circles.
While lowering the salt dose and capacity would further increase salt efficiency, in addition to lower quality water (increased hardness leakage) as mentioned, the softener will need to regenerate more frequently, thereby using more water than normally expected for that size softener.
As previously stated in post #9, the 6 & 8 lb/cuft settings are the best compromise between salt efficiency, water efficiency and water quality.
To review, your original post indicated you are using city water with an average hardness of 15 gpg and presently using 35 gallons/pp/day with four people, but expect water consumption will be increasing. You also stated wanting an appropriately sized unit that would go 2 weeks or longer between regen cycles. A 2 cuft softener was confirmed to satisfy that requirement for your current usage.
While you calculated your daily consumption based on 15 gpg X 140 gallons/day (=2100 grains/day), it is recommended to program 2-3 additional gpg hardness than the hardness level tested at your home so as to anticipate some hardness variance from the city. Using 17 gpg, your current softening load would then be 2,380 grains/day with an expectation that water consumption will be increasing.
Using these revised figures, a 2 cuft unit programmed at 40K capacity would then be anticipated to regenerate approx every 16 days but as water consumption increases, regeneration frequency will also increase.
If there is a reason to purchase a 2 cuft softener, then it only makes sense to use its additional capacity. If you're stuck believing it needs to regenerate when 30K grains has been used, then it will likely be best for you to obtain the 1.5 cuft unit which will currently be anticipated to regenerate every 12 days when using a 6 lb/cuft salt setting.
While lowering the salt dose and capacity would further increase salt efficiency, in addition to lower quality water (increased hardness leakage) as mentioned, the softener will need to regenerate more frequently, thereby using more water than normally expected for that size softener.
As previously stated in post #9, the 6 & 8 lb/cuft settings are the best compromise between salt efficiency, water efficiency and water quality.
To review, your original post indicated you are using city water with an average hardness of 15 gpg and presently using 35 gallons/pp/day with four people, but expect water consumption will be increasing. You also stated wanting an appropriately sized unit that would go 2 weeks or longer between regen cycles. A 2 cuft softener was confirmed to satisfy that requirement for your current usage.
While you calculated your daily consumption based on 15 gpg X 140 gallons/day (=2100 grains/day), it is recommended to program 2-3 additional gpg hardness than the hardness level tested at your home so as to anticipate some hardness variance from the city. Using 17 gpg, your current softening load would then be 2,380 grains/day with an expectation that water consumption will be increasing.
Using these revised figures, a 2 cuft unit programmed at 40K capacity would then be anticipated to regenerate approx every 16 days but as water consumption increases, regeneration frequency will also increase.
If there is a reason to purchase a 2 cuft softener, then it only makes sense to use its additional capacity. If you're stuck believing it needs to regenerate when 30K grains has been used, then it will likely be best for you to obtain the 1.5 cuft unit which will currently be anticipated to regenerate every 12 days when using a 6 lb/cuft salt setting.
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Hi everyone,
Just an update. I’ve finally had my softener installed, 64k grain (2 cf) softener 10% resin. I’ve had a company install it did me.
I mentioned the settings you guys have recommended for me, setting it for 6 lb/cf using 40000 grains hardness 15. My hardness was found to be 11, so he used 13 for hardness.
He stated to just use the whole 64000 grain capacity instead of programming it to 40,000 grains to be used which yields ~4700 gallons of water to be used before regeneration. He set it to use 6.25 salt/cf. He set day override to 45, claiming as long as I am using water daily the resin will be ok, and only deteriorates if it just sits there not being used. There is no way we will go through 4700 gallons in a month, possibly a little longer.
Does this sound ok to you guys (gals)? Is the time between regenerations too long? Am I using the softener correctly to maximize salt and water efficiency?
Also, shortly after installing the water softener the toilet/faucets seem to be sputtering slightly with pressure (however is getting better), and the water in the toilet has a dissolved particle look to it. Is this normal after right after installing? Thank you,
Just an update. I’ve finally had my softener installed, 64k grain (2 cf) softener 10% resin. I’ve had a company install it did me.
I mentioned the settings you guys have recommended for me, setting it for 6 lb/cf using 40000 grains hardness 15. My hardness was found to be 11, so he used 13 for hardness.
He stated to just use the whole 64000 grain capacity instead of programming it to 40,000 grains to be used which yields ~4700 gallons of water to be used before regeneration. He set it to use 6.25 salt/cf. He set day override to 45, claiming as long as I am using water daily the resin will be ok, and only deteriorates if it just sits there not being used. There is no way we will go through 4700 gallons in a month, possibly a little longer.
Does this sound ok to you guys (gals)? Is the time between regenerations too long? Am I using the softener correctly to maximize salt and water efficiency?
Also, shortly after installing the water softener the toilet/faucets seem to be sputtering slightly with pressure (however is getting better), and the water in the toilet has a dissolved particle look to it. Is this normal after right after installing? Thank you,
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No. Yes. ummm.... not sure how to answer that third one... you will have good salt and water efficiency, but you will have hardness leakage.
I predict that maybe in the third week you will see significant hardness leakage. No catastrophe. When that happens, change C to 41 for 6.25 pounds of salt per cuft.
What controller do you have?
I have Fleck 5600sxt. Can you please explain why it’s not efficient and why regeneration time being that long is bad? What is the absolute maximum day override I should use? Why would I experience hard leakage?
Also, can you clarify what a value of 41 for C means? I’m assuming my C now is 64? Thanks so much sorry for the questions I am new to this. Thank you
I did not say it is not efficient. Ditttohead has recommended a maximum 30 days for day override. Good enough for me. I don't expect the DO to come in to play for you unless you are on vacation.
That would be what grains of softening I expect you would get using 12.5 pounds of salt in 2 cuft of resin. 64000 grains (C=64) is what you would expect with about 18 pounds of salt per cubic ft of resin for each regeneration. Not salt efficient.
I don't know how you would get 6.25 pounds/cuft anyway. With a BLFC of 0.5, BF=8 gives 6, and BF=9 gives 6.75 lb/cuft. One minute is the granularity on BF. If the current BF is not 8 or 9, check back before proceeding. It is possible in that case that you don't have a 0.5 BLFC.
So anyway, here is a stab at some reasonable settings for you:
System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 2 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Raw hardness = 13 ; including any compensation
People = 4 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 240 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 12.8 ; Computed days ignoring reserve
Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 40.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 13 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 240 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 30 ; Day Override (28 to 30 if no iron)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 8 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = usually t0.7 ; flow meter, make note of what is there
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Thank you for your information. So if I understand correctly:
I will program for 40,000 grains so that will use 6 lb/cf salt and will regenerate once we use up the 40000 grains which at 13 gpg and roughly 1700 grains used per day would regenerate every 23 days or so?
Can anyone explain the thought process of my installer? He set Capacity to 64... how many lbs of salt per cf does that equal? Why would he do this?
If I have a 64000 grain unit but only set it up to 40000 grains, he said I would be wasting water and resin life. Is this true? What benefit do I have in a 64000 unit if I set it to only soften 40000?
Also, is it normal to have not clear water in toilet/showers right after install? Will this go away after time? Thanks everyone
To be more precise, you will have a countdown on the display (alternating with time). When that hits zero, the softener thinks you have 240 gallons (RC value) left. That could be at 7 am. That's OK. You are into the reserve. The "service indicator" (faucet icon) will flash saying that a regen is planned for 2am.
Now experience may show that 240 is not the right number, because you use less water than many 4-person households. Just adjust the RC (reserve capacity) number as appropriate.
He has been told it is a "64000 grain" softener. He told people that. So he does not want to be inconsistent. That's OK. It did not really hurt you, because you were thinking of cubic ft, as you should. The 64000 should be looked at a convention rather than a useful number.
http://www.cwwltd.com/content/pdf/Purolite-C100-Operating-Data.pdf table Fig. 3 should be of interest if you would like to study this.
So as he programmed the C to be 64, what salt dose is this? And how much salt would it use per regeneration? We will mostly likely be reaching the regeneration time well over a month. How detrimental would it be to regenerate > 30 days?
If I’m using only 40000 grains at a time, will this damage the resin/softener in anyway? Thank you, I am asking to further my knowledge on this subject
If I’m using only 40000 grains at a time, will this damage the resin/softener in anyway? Thank you, I am asking to further my knowledge on this subject
ditttohead
Water systems designer, R&D
Your installer simply is not experienced in water softening capacities and does not understand how they work. This is normal and is one of the many reasons somethings are better left to the pros.
In my opinion, the best performance/efficiency compromise is 8 pounds per ft. This will give you 24,000 grains per ft3. So your 2 ft3 system should be programmed for 48,000 grains, and the salt should be set to a total of 16 pounds per regeneration.
It will not damage the resin to regenerate it only once a month, this is totally fine. The discolored water is usually caused by the installer no knowing how to properly rinse down the softener so as to avoid this. I would recommend running your system through a couple more regens and flush your lines. The discoloration should go away. if it does not this can be your dirty pipes getting cleaned by the softened water or on a very rare occasion a defective batch of resin that kicks off color for a long time. This is very rare and will usually be a known problem as an entire batch will be affected. I am not currently aware of any of the manufacturers having this problem.
In my opinion, the best performance/efficiency compromise is 8 pounds per ft. This will give you 24,000 grains per ft3. So your 2 ft3 system should be programmed for 48,000 grains, and the salt should be set to a total of 16 pounds per regeneration.
It will not damage the resin to regenerate it only once a month, this is totally fine. The discolored water is usually caused by the installer no knowing how to properly rinse down the softener so as to avoid this. I would recommend running your system through a couple more regens and flush your lines. The discoloration should go away. if it does not this can be your dirty pipes getting cleaned by the softened water or on a very rare occasion a defective batch of resin that kicks off color for a long time. This is very rare and will usually be a known problem as an entire batch will be affected. I am not currently aware of any of the manufacturers having this problem.
Hi, I’ve decided to go with these settings. However, before I change them, the installer has these currently set on:
BW = 10
RR = 10
BF= 16
Do these settings that the installer inputted above work better for setting 64000 capacity?
Would BW = 5, RR = 5, BF = 8 work better for setting at 40000 grain capacity? What exactly do these settings do?
Also, there’s a part of the manual that says Pre-set regeneration cycles and to choose “day of week” etc.... I can not access this do these not apply to my controller?
Sorry for the stupid questions.. I’m almost there thanks
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
To answer this question, your softener containing 2 cuft of resin has a total theoretcical capacity of 64,000 grains when regenerated with 36 lbs of salt every cycle. Using and restoring 100% of capacity results in extremely inefficient salt consumption (64,000 / 36 = 1,777 grains per lb) and other issues.
As some resin bead damage and loss is to be expected, pros who recognize these losses and the relationship of capacity vs salt setting, will not program the softener's total resin capacity but will program a lower capacity setting with the appropriate salt setting so as to achieve higher salt efficiency.
The settings Ditttohead recommended, is an appropriate balance between salt efficiency, water quality and water efficiency, as specified previously. (Salt efficiency = 48,000 grains / 16 = 3,000 grains per lb).
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First 2, no big deal. Not critical. Shorter saves a little bit of water.
BF, that is a big deal. Do you have a label similar to this on your softener?
If you don't have a label, I am suggest that you look at the BLFC button. We can discuss how.
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
Back Wash will flushout any debris which happens to enter the softener in the incoming water. BW will also expand and reclasify the resin bed so to eliminate any channelling which may have occurred since the last regeneration cycle, while also allowing the brine to easily flow between the resin beads to increase resin contact during regeneration. A 10 minute BW is fairly standard for most softener's and will help ensure the resin bed is appropriately expanded and reclassified.
Rapid Rinse occurs after the brine has been slowly rinsed from the resin bed, so as to repack the resin bed so as to force water to be softened to flow through the resin bed as opposed to between the beads. The Rapid Rinse setting may often be reduced to 5 minutes.
The Brine Fill setting is the time setting for water to enter the brine tank so as to dissolve the appropriate amount of salt for the next regeneration cycle. If the softener's BLFC rate as 0.5 gpm, then a 16 minute BF will result in 8 gallons entering the brine tank. As each 1 gallon will dissolve 3 lbs of salt, then the 16 minute setting will dissolve 24 lbs salt.
For Ditttohead's recommended settings, only 16 lbs salt will be needed. As time settings are usually whole numbers, 11 minutes will dissolve 16.5 lbs.
If the BLFC actually installed is not 0.5 gpm, then the BF setting to be programmed will need to be modified appropriately. Common BLFC restrictors available are .125, .25, .5 and 1 gpm.
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First 2, no big deal. Not critical. Shorter saves a little bit of water.
BF, that is a big deal. Do you have a label similar to this on your softener?
If you don't have a label, I am suggest that you look at the BLFC button. We can discuss how.
Reach, yes I do have a sticker and it looks exactly like that, .5 gpm, 1.5 lbs salt/min.
If I go with 40000 capacity, what BW, RR, BF do you guys recommend and what if I went with ditto’s 48000 capacity?
Also, does the computer simply keep track of the last time it regenerated? Is that how it calculates DO? Thanks
For C and BF, see table below. I underlined two choices near 8 lb/cuft. The ones near the underlined values would be good too. If you can only do whole numbers for C, then you can round. So BF=10 and C=46 would be good. Let us know if the controller accepts C in tenths.
BW and RR are less critical. Ten minute backwash will wash more sediment, but you won't have much sediment. 5 minutes. 10 minutes. Something in between. Up to you. At least you don't live where you are short of water. ;-)
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
5.250 ; 37.2 ; 7
6.000 ; 40.0 ; 8
6.750 ; 43.1 ; 9
7.500 ; 46.1 ; 10
8.250 ; 48.9 ; 11
9.000 ; 51.3 ; 12
9.750 ; 53.4 ; 13
10.500 ; 55.1 ; 14
11.250 ; 56.4 ; 15
12.000 ; 57.5 ; 16
Does the control remember where you are? I am not sure. If you change the C and/or BF, I don't know if it starts over or not. If you are not changing settings, it remembers where it is at.
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