About to start my shower

Users who are viewing this thread

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
Hi everyone!

So, I've been working on this room for a long time, now we're almost ready to start the shower!

My plan is to lay down some roofing paper then the sand/concrete mix for the sloped floor to the drain. Then put the sides of the shower on with durock. Then, use the thinset to do the durock joints on the side walls and ceiling (sloped side wall). Then finally finish with the redgard and then tile.

Any thoughts before I dive in?

Thanks!

JF
10941259_10153039563630883_957505453_n.jpg
10942803_10153039565265883_1916556507_n.jpg
 

ShowerDude

Showers
Messages
710
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Minnesota
OK youve been researching and chosen a liquid thinbed aproach ..... over joist/subfloor.


regardless of your material choices and chosen approach....

start with:

tell us how you intend to tie red gard into drain and protect weeps?

whats your plan with that oversized wood curb?



i cant make out that drain on my iphone.




lots to question here .....
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
Most deckmud will also require metal lath to reinforce things over the wooden subfloor. That drain isn't really designed for that method of shower installation - as mentioned, it appears that you have a clamping drain, but can't tell exactly from the picture. A surface applied liquid waterproofing requires some specific steps. Have you read Custom Building Products spec sheet on how to do it with RedGard? That should be your first step, then decide if it is the right thing for you.
 

JohnfrWhipple

BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
Messages
3,225
Reaction score
102
Points
48
Location
North Vancouver, BC
....My plan is to lay down some roofing paper then the sand/concrete mix for the sloped floor to the drain. Then put the sides of the shower on with durock. Then, use the thinset to do the durock joints on the side walls and ceiling (sloped side wall). Then finally finish with the redgard and then tile.

Any thoughts before I dive in?....

ANY THOUGHTS

Yes - get a new plan. The one now leaves a lot to de desired.

You forgot about simple things like. Code required ANSI 118.10 waterproofing. Flood tests. Pre-Slope.

You are missing blocking in the photos down low and up high.

Subfloor prep not finished.

Your missing fasteners.

The plywood is to tight in areas.

No silicone shown to prevent mortar from sealing sheets of plywood together.

That is from looking at just two photos.
 

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
Ok, thanks for the comments/questions. I'll answer them in the order they were given:

tell us how you intend to tie red gard into drain and protect weeps?
So, my plan was to have the cement run up to the edge of the bottom rim of the drain. Then I would redgard over the top and down into the top of the drain. When the top of the drain gets bolted down, the weep holes would be sitting on top of the redgard. Then, when I tile, I'm supposed to put small stones on the top weep holes to prevent the thinset from covering them, correct. That was my plan, anyway.

whats your plan with that oversized wood curb?
For the curb, I was planning on covering the top and inside with cement board, sealing the joints with thinset, and redgard over that. Then tile.

Most deckmud will also require metal lath to reinforce things over the wooden subfloor.
I wasn't planning on putting metal lath to reinforce the concrete (I hadn't seen anyone do that in the videos I watched) but I could. Would something like chicken wire work?

That drain isn't really designed for that method of shower installation - as mentioned, it appears that you have a clamping drain, but can't tell exactly from the picture.
I can post a better picture of the drain. It has a bottom metal rim and then the top part screws down into the hole.

You forgot about simple things like. Code required ANSI 118.10 waterproofing.
I was under the assumption that redgard meets A118.10 for waterproofing.

Flood tests.
The flood test would be done after redgard was installed.

Pre-Slope.

There would only be one slope, that would be the slope I would do with the cement floor (over the sub-floor).

You are missing blocking in the photos down low and up high.

What blocking is missing? Should there be blocking at the bottom in between studs?

Subfloor prep not finished.
I haven't thinset the cracks yet but I intend to when I start.

Your missing fasteners.
Where? Screws were done every 6-8 inches or so but we may have missed some.

The plywood is to tight in areas.
We tried to keep an 1/8" gap at all the seams, will it cause a problem if it's touching in a few places?

No silicone shown to prevent mortar from sealing sheets of plywood together.
I have not heard this before. I was planning on putting down tar paper so the mortar wouldn't actually touch the sub floor. Are you saying if I used a bead of silicon between plywood sheets I wouldn't need the tar paper?


Thanks for all your help and suggestions btw.

Thanks,

JF
 

ShowerDude

Showers
Messages
710
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Minnesota
so much to touch on here!

for starters its a big shower and screeding a mud pan floor will certainly require an approved deflection rating and a lath reinforced pan . mud thickness of 1.5" at drain. which forces you to a divot method with your plan. and i still cannot see that drian to verify its a proper clamping drain.


the most dangerous liquid membrane shower pan approach is yours. a large float over joist/ply .

i dont like liquid pans period & especially here and from someone unaware of lath & installing it.

do you want help and a better plan or for us to tell you you will be OK ??
 
Last edited:

Vegas_sparky

Digital Billy
Messages
486
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
Hey John F. I'm a DIY guy too. Don't take the advice you're getting lightly. What you're being told is coming from professional experience, and these are some of the very best guys in the business.

These builds aren't hard, but very detail oriented. Quick, cheap, and easy don't really apply, and a missed/skipped step can really affect the service life/performance at the end.
 

JohnfrWhipple

BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
Messages
3,225
Reaction score
102
Points
48
Location
North Vancouver, BC
You should research "Tenting".

Then re-visit your subfloor work.

You have so much planned here I do not like. I can not see the other advice you are being given (see how to Block Users on Terry Love's Forum) so I will bow out of this discussion, but not until I urge you to do more research.

Look at the MapeiBand Flashing. Why would a company making liquid membranes and cementious membranes have this material. I have used one and it sucks. The NobleFlex Flashing is the best tie in material but not green lighted by Custom for use with there red guard.

I would never use a liquid on a floor prep that is less than 4 weeks old or set with rapid curing cement. And never by itself. Always with the 36" wide re-inforceing fabric.

I've seen old red guard go brittle. First hand. On my own project.
 

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
so much to touch on here!

for starters its a big shower and screeding a mud pan floor will certainly require an approved deflection rating and a lath reinforced pan . mud thickness of 1.5" at drain. which forces you to a divot method with your plan. and i still cannot see that drian to verify its a proper clamping drain.


the most dangerous liquid membrane shower pan approach is yours. a large float over joist/ply .

i dont like liquid pans period & especially here and from someone unaware of lath & installing it.

do you want help and a better plan or for us to tell you you will be OK ??

Do I want help?
Thanks for all the replies. My goal is definately a working and non-leaking shower so please point me in the right direction! I'm attaching close up pictures of the drain. Hopefully this will clear up some questions.

Divot?
As to the divot method, I guess I was just assuming that's what I'd need to do, though I didn't know I would need a 1.5" thickness at the drain. That's good to know. That's what I was trying to explain above. I see there's a membrane folks use to cover that transition as an extra layer of protection (instead of only using the redgard). That seems easy enough to do.

Floor and Pan?
The floor is a full 3/4" tongue and groove with another sheet of 3/4" over that. Screwed down to the floor joists. Because of the dimensions of the shower, I think a handmade pan is the only way we can do this. I did a bit of reading on using a rubber membrane with the redguard but it seems you should only do one or the other. I'm not sure what is meant by 'approved deflection rating' or how to test that. I'm assuming the concern is that the floor doesn't move before you put the cement down?

Lathe?
I know what lathe is and how it is used; I just haven't seen it used on any of the videos I've watched of people pouring their own shower (with the exception of some curb videos). The cement I got was a sand mix, not gravel, so I figured it would be dense enough not to have cracking issues. Is that a safe assumption? Or does it totally depend on the sub floor?

Thanks for the questions and help!

JF

10952373_10153051902405883_1676800095_n.jpg
10953053_10153051903250883_1225337787_n.jpg
 

ShowerDude

Showers
Messages
710
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Minnesota
weep divot

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yO5xOSFWK...shower+pan+weep+divot+tundra+finish+works.JPG


John.

in a vaccum , in theory you could screed a pan and pour a solid concrete curb install CBU, let things cure for a week or so then start coating w/redgaurd.

not so simple.



I just dont like the approach and a newbie attempting it either.

theres other better ways to play it safe for a novice.


but since you keep talking youre way into this approach

lets assume you have already added screws and siliconed your subfloor gaps. then lets assume you add blocking at sole plate and CBU seams.

then lets assume your drain is secured properly to the subfloor. and that you DIDNT have it recessed below the second layer of plywood w sloppy radius cut....(.. #1 problem area that needs to be adressed)

assuming all that .

you could staple down 15# felt and 2.5 lath. set a drain perimiter height of 1.5" of deck mud and screed out to 1/4"ft grade. adding a second middle layer of lath wouldnt hurt either.

add a perimiter layer of sil gasket foam as a bond breaker /expansion measure at sole plate blocking first.

create a weep divot at drain flange and let the pan and curb dry. close up walls tape thinset joints and coat w/red gaurd.

the big concern being the change of plane at wall/pan junction needs flabric reinforcement and proper inside/outside corners as does curb area.

the drain tie in is THE biggest concern and is not something i would sell to my clients or advise a DIY first timer to do.


if thats what you want to do to your home then have at it!

in the link picture above is a weep divot @drain.

this is what you will want yours to look like only deeper at 1.5"

in this pic i am about to install a 3/4 Nobleflex flashing and then a topical pan membrane. The safer smarter way to go IMO.

your plan could work if
you do everything JUST right .

may I ask why you are sold on this risky approach?

you will find out if it works when you FLOOD test your work!

hope that helps.... let us know if you want a better plan A
 

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
Thanks for all the info:

Fullysprinklered
I'm not sure who you're referring to or if I'm missing a joke... but hi!

RedShoecounterbalance:

in theory you could screed a pan and pour a solid concrete curb install CBU
What is CBU?

I just dont like the approach and a newbie attempting it either.
I'm feeling brave, but I'm not stupid. I will definitely listen to reason and better ideas!

theres other better ways to play it safe for a novice.
I'm definitely a novice!

but since you keep talking youre way into this approach
Well, I did buy all the supplies, but I haven't started mixing the cement yet... And a Lowes is close by

lets assume you have already added screws and siliconed your subfloor gaps. then lets assume you add blocking at sole plate and CBU seams.
So, more screws. Easy. The floor gaps aren't very big. Should I try and route them out to a thicker gap? Pull them up and cut them all down? Assuming I did, I'm guessing simple silicone calk will work for the gaps? And the blocking at the sole plate, what is the purpose? I googled a bit and saw folks with 2x4's turned sideways. Would that work?

then lets assume your drain is secured properly to the subfloor. and that you DIDNT have it recessed below the second layer of plywood w sloppy radius cut....(.. #1 problem area that needs to be adressed)
As you can see, there's a bit of a gap there... The plumber attached that drain and it won't move at all. I told him what the sub floor was going to be so I assumed he put it exactly where it was supposed to go. How would you fix it?

you could staple down 15# felt and 2.5 lath.
So, roofing paper? Is that the same thing? And 2.5 lath... will that take the cement? It seems like it's made more for pouring liquid concrete than the semi-dry sandy looking cement I see people using on TV

set a drain perimiter height of 1.5" of deck mud and screed out to 1/4"ft grade. adding a second middle layer of lath wouldnt hurt either.
That doesn't seem too hard

add a perimiter layer of sil gasket foam as a bond breaker /expansion measure at sole plate blocking first.
That's to create an expansion space between the concrete and the studs, right?

create a weep divot at drain flange and let the pan and curb dry. close up walls tape thinset joints and coat w/red gaurd.
Right, I understand that.

the big concern being the change of plane at wall/pan junction needs flabric reinforcement and proper inside/outside corners as does curb area.
Is this where I use Merkrete? Or something similar?

the drain tie in is THE biggest concern and is not something i would sell to my clients or advise a DIY first timer to do.
The goal is to have the cement meet the edge of the drain, right? Then membrane to cover the transition? What specifically is difficult/dangerous about this step? Does it easily break/wear out/crack and leak? Or is it too hard to get level? What should I be looking out for?

if thats what you want to do to your home then have at it!
Well, it is a shower on the 3rd floor of an older house... no, really, I'd prefer it to work the first time

in the link picture above is a weep divot @drain.
Thank you. I was looking at something similar today

this is what you will want yours to look like only deeper at 1.5"
right

in this pic i am about to install a 3/4 Nobleflex flashing and then a topical pan membrane. The safer smarter way to go IMO.
The flashing is safer? Or the topical pan membrane? They do sell the stuff at Lowes. But then I'd have to learn about folding corners and all the other hard things that people talk about it. It'll be a learning curve either way.

your plan could work if
you do everything JUST right .

'tis my intention

may I ask why you are sold on this risky approach?
Only because it seemed easier to me than the other approach which was the rubber membrane and a second sloped floor on top of the membrane, less work than ripping out the entire shower framing to rebuild it to the size of a tub, and cheaper than hiring someone to do it for several thousand dollars.

you will find out if it works when you FLOOD test your work!
I'm quite confident it will work on the flood test. I'm more concerned that it works in 5 years though.

hope that helps.... let us know if you want a better plan A
I would love to know what your better plan A would be. And a link or two would also be helpful.

Thanks!

JF
 

ShowerDude

Showers
Messages
710
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Minnesota
John

the mudbed to drain connection in YOUR specific situation RISKY.

redguard would need reinforcement, and youve got a questionable drain recess in plywood that you are now saying is an unglued second layer ?? with scant screws at best.

anytime you taper concrete , in this case deck mud to a plywood substrate and try to tie in w liquid is a weak link i would only use on certain slab on grade situation s ....therefore i dont like your plan period, i suggest abort and look at options..

theres many systems....look at laticrete hydroban showers and or noble thinbed system.

i suggest a new/ better drain riser and flange placed properly as well. a bit of framing , subfloor work before moving fwd??


Now you have forced me to advertise for these products!!!! not my intention.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
You could buy the Hydroban drain, or the Schluter Kerdi conversion drain, build your single layer of sloped pan, and then cover it with your choice of sheet membranes, or go with a Noble drain - they're all good. All of those have a wide flange designed to accept surface waterproofing, a clamping drain is designed to accept a vinyl liner. Just simply putting in the bolts of the clamping drain can be problematic keeping the waterproofing if you use liquid waterproofing materials.

Deckmud is NOT really strong stuff...it's great in compression, but it is mostly sand with enough cement to hold it together...it NEEDS to be porous, at least when used in a conventional mudbed shower, and more cement or more water can cause it to shrink and crack, neither of which is a good thing. In the right mixture, it does pack easily and can be shaped. So, depending on the manufacturer of deckmud you buy (assuming you buy it premixed, and even if you don't, you should consider their guidance on the premixed stuff along with the industry), over a wooden subfloor, it needs thickness and lath to provide the strength. Silicon in the seams of the ply is not called out in any of the industry specs for installations of tile over plywood. Some CBU (cement backer unit - aka cement board) call for it, most don't, the plywood industry doesn't spec it. The thinset manufactures don't spec it. Do it if it makes you feel better, just don't get sloppy, since thinset won't stick to it. Any that gets into the seams will end up getting crushed over time to a powder...not a big deal - there's always a little bit of air space in mortar when you mix it (called entrained air), so there's space. And, once the plywood is acclimated to the room, and you don't get it wet, the plywood industry calls for there to not be any gaps when installing the underlayment ply! THey require it on the subflooring, since the house can be open to the weather, but once closed in, and conditioned, once acclimated, the underlayment can be tight...most still leave a gap, but look at all of the vinyl installs...they purposely put filler in there to hide the seams and you do NOT see the vinyl puckering or lifting at those seams for a reason...once acclimated to the room, it is not going to get rained on or snow sitting there, and the moisture content will stay reasonably consistent. There's a BIG difference between rough-in of a house with moisture and expansion/contraction, and a finished surface done to a completed house.
 

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
Thanks again for the feedback!

and youve got a questionable drain recess in plywood that you are now saying is an unglued second layer ?? with scant screws at best.
I can easily put more screws in. The floor is glued down too. I'm not sure how to fix the area around the drain other than to glue down a plywood ring or fill it with concrete.

i suggest abort and look at options
So, I would need to fix the drain regardless? The sub floor isn't coming up so I need a way around that. If I skipped the redgard and just used the rubber membrane, would I need to slope the floor first, then put down the rubber, then slope on top of the rubber, then use the noble or laticrete on top? Or, after I slope above the rubber, can I just tile over that?

build your single layer of sloped pan, and then cover it with your choice of sheet membranes, or go with a Noble drain - they're all good. All of those have a wide flange designed to accept surface waterproofing, a clamping drain is designed to accept a vinyl liner.
Ok, so the Noble drain is the transition from the rubber membrane to the drain I have now? I guess, if I change directions now, I'm just not sure of the correct steps for using the rubber membrane.

Also, thank you Jadnashua for the extra info on the mud and subfloor.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,771
Reaction score
1,191
Points
113
Location
New England
The liner of a shower is required to be sloped. If you use a rubber liner, it needs a preslope. If you use a surface membrane, you save a layer since you can tile directly to it, verses needing another layer of deckmud (and keep in mind, that needs thickness to work and hold together - depending on who you ask, somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5" minimum over a wooden subfloor). If your drain is installed too low, you've limited your choices to a couple of methods - a low profile system with a surface membrane, or a conversion drain designed to work with a surface membrane layer (Kerdi is one system like that www.schluter.com).
 

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
If your drain is installed too low, you've limited your choices to a couple of methods - a low profile system with a surface membrane
Ok, so assuming I can't fix the drain installation, is the weak spot (as far as leaking is concerned) the transition from the concrete floor to the drain?

I need the drain coupler to sit over something, some type of membrane. I'm sure while researching this process I came across a type of pan that you placed above the concrete but below the membrane to make that transition while allowing for the 1.5" of concrete at the drain... But now I can't find it.

JF
 

Johnfiorello

New Member
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
CT
Here's a video showing what I'm thinking in my head. If I cement under and to the drain flange I could use a fabric reinforcement like Redshoe suggested at the drain divot, then membrane over the top.
JF
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ShowerDude

Showers
Messages
710
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Minnesota
regardless your myriad of changed opinions/plans.

you need to back up.


1. cut your drain out from below
2. repair subfloor around drain (this includes proper blocking from below to support this drain area.

3. Install new drain flange flush to floor and screw it in level and make sure its solid .

4. finish proper blocking. and show me some pictures of all this work completed. as well as the joist and repair work from below.

then I will continue to walk you thru a sound process to complete your shower.

until you get On board with backing up I simply
image.jpg
cannot help you build a questionable shower . nor keep chasing rabbit holes!

you need to get to this point in my picture first then youll be ready for a succesful shower pan.


the weep divot flashing i would use is called nobleflex and youll need the 1.5" version.


again good luck.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks