11 3/8" Rough In

[Jcryan19]

My upstairs toilet has an 11 3/8" rough in instead of the standard 12" rough in that you usually see. I also have the water valve coming in behind the toilet, 2" from the wall and approx 4" from the center of the toilet. I realize that the water valve may need to change location and that isn't that big of a problem given that the entire bathroom is being renovated at the same time. The problem I have is which toilet to use. I've looked primarily online but I'm not certain what will work and what won't. I've been looking at the Champion4, Cadet3, Drake, Ultramax. I'm leaning towards either Toto model given the reviews I've seen here I'm just concerned about the fit. I've noticed that the dedicated plumbing stores are all selling almost exclusively Toto around here which makes me think the quality is probably much higher. I'm going out Friday to look at the Toto models and see how they look in person and get pricing. Any help/advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Gary Swart]

A Toto Drake classed as a 12" rough-in toilet will actually install on as little as 11-1/8". The tank would be tight against the wall, but it would work. With 11-3/8", you will have a 1/4" space behind the tank. My Drake and it's 1st cousin the Dartmouth, both are 12" toilets and are installed on 12" rough-in (exactly) There is almost 2" space behind them. Go for the Drake.

 

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[Esquire]

I put a AS flushwise toilet into a 10 3/8" rough last week. I'm sure it could cause moisture issues in the right climate, but the customer said it had to go in. It was tight but it worked. But most that are designed for 12" rough have at least 3/4" from the tank to wall.

 

[Jadnashua]

Any of the Toto skirted toilets that use the Unifit adapter have a nominal 0.75" behind them, and while close, would also fit. The skirt requires the water supply to be over further than on some other toilets.

 

[Jcryan19]

Thanks for all the advice. It is interesting that the AS fit into such a small rough in. I'm glad that it doesn't look like I'll have much of a problem besides possibly needing to move the water supply over a bit. I'm wondering what would be better to get the lined tank version or the unlined. I live in southern Ontario and it gets pretty humid here, though I do have central air.

 

[Gary Swart]

Low flow toilets do not sweat nearly as much as the old water hogs. The reason is the flush on a low flow uses only 1.6 or 1.28 gallons of water from the tank which will still have a gallon or so of water remaining. This means the water that refills the tank mixes with water that is already at room temperature unless the toilet is being used a great deal. Plus that refill water usually has been in the supply pipe for a time and has warmed up.

 

[Jadnashua]

If your cold water supply is regularly quite cold (more common with deep wells, or the further north you go), you may get some condensation. If your toilet is used frequently, the insulation won't help, since eventually, the toilet will cool off, regardless. For most people, this isn't a problem, especially with the low-flow toilets. WIth a short rough-in, you will not have the normal room for ventilation behind it. If it becomes a problem, the best solution is to install a tempering valve to supply the toilet. This mixes a little hot with the cold, to bring the water temperature above the dew point. If you are going to do some work in the wall, you might want to bring hot there as well. Then hook it up, if needed.

 

[hj]

quote; I've noticed that the dedicated plumbing stores are all selling almost exclusively Toto around here which makes me think the quality is probably much higher.

That may be true in your area, but here, there are only a couple of wholesalers who carry Toto, and even they may have to order it if you want any other than the garden variety one.

 

[Jcryan19]

That may be true in your area, but here, there are only a couple of wholesalers who carry Toto, and even they may have to order it if you want any other than the garden variety one.

In that case Hj what do they tend to stock in your area. Where I am the big boxes, Home Depot, Lowes sell Kohler, American Standard, Jacuzzi. The dedicated plumbing stores I've seen tend to stock the Toto. I'm pretty much open to any suggestions. I just need something that flushes very well as I am tired of the old toilet plugging up with barely anything in it.

I'll keep in mind what jadnashua said about a tempering valve. It certainly sounds like a good idea.

 

[Jadnashua]

The actual stock that makes it to a plumbing supply house may be different than the stuff that sits on the shelves of the big box stores, even on the same brand and model (note, sometimes the name may be the same, but the model number is different, maybe only by a dash or something). Professional plumbers demand higher quality stuff, without defects. Expect higher defect rates at a big box store, regardless. Yes, you can get one that looks and works well, but your odds are higher at a place where the (better) pros shop than at a big box store. Toto refuses to play the 'we'll take a thousand of those if you drop the price to X' ploy. The only way a company can do that continually, is to cut a corner unless it is just overstock or they make some compromises. The big box stores are more equipped to accept not everyone will recognize it is defective, or that people will actually take the time to return it...often they just don't know it is defective unless really blatent.

 

[Jcryan19]

I went to the plumbing store today. I asked for the best flusher they got and he showed me the Toto Drake. The price was actually pretty much on par with the Champion toilet which surprised me. The only things that I heard which confuse me a bit were actually from another salesman. He was selling to another couple and stated some things which I don't know if he's right on. I'm pretty certain on at least one he is wrong. This salesman said that the Toto toilets were hard to install and that you can only use a Toto toilet seat. I can't see why either one of these statements would be true. Does anyone know if this is the case? Is it more difficult to get parts for Toto toilets?

 

[Jadnashua]

The Drake, and (nearly) any other Toto can use any standard toilet seat. They come in round or elongated. Now, color matching and exact match to the curves won't always match, but it will fit and work. I know some toilets whose own branded seats don't fit all that well, so it is generally not a big deal. Some Toto toilets require an expansion plug bolt since you can't put a nut on the bottom, so if you happened to have a seat with a captive bolt, then it wouldn't work. Not too many of those. You might need to buy from Toto the bolts, but they are available elsewhere.

The Drake attaches to the flange exactly like 99% of all other toilets out there, so he is totally wrong on that. Some of their toilets use other fixtures: the Unifit, for example. The Unifit works on some of the skirted toilets (Carlyle, Vespin, etc.). The Aquia series also uses some other bits to hold it in place. So, some of their toilets do require some additional holes be drilled to mount those brackets, but NOT the Drake...it is quite conventional in installation. None of those that do require extra holes are really all that hard...they come with a template, and if you can read and follow instructions, it's pretty much a no-brainer, just takes a bit longer. You also need the right tool to drill the holes, as a standard bit might not work in say stone or porcelain.

 

[Jcryan19]

I figured that was the case. Thanks.

 

[Terry]

It's easier to get parts for the TOTO Drake then for the Champion.
Both take a standard fill valve, many hardware stores carry the 3" flapper for the Toto, I haven't seen the Champion flushvalve parts on the shelf yet.
And seats are seats.
You can pick regular (round) or elongated.

 

[papagofur]

I take offense to your statement. The items at the big box stores are the same model numbers and quality as what you get at a dedicated store . There ARE items made specifically for certain companies. They do not sell "defectives" or "seconds". They buy in bulk, ship in bulk and pass the savings along. The differences you see in prices are due mainly to savings in freight.
I have 30 years experience behind me in retail home centers to back up my statements.

 

[Terry]

I have 30 years experience behind me in retail home centers to back up my statements.
papagofur

And the plumbers have their experience buying from wholesale plumbing suppliers, and trying to install products that homeowners get at retail home centers.

I think hj has maybe fifty years experience, and I'm at 36 years.

And while we are at it, what about the faucets sold at "retail" home centers. The plumbers, who happen to see both the wholesale and the retail versions have been noticing some differences there too. Moen at least adds an eight in front of the number to let you know it's a "cheaper" version of what the plumbers are selling. The plumbers notice more plastic in those faucets.

I don't buy lumber at the retail home centers either. But then I used to build homes, and I like getting the good stuff.

 

[Jcryan19]

I have been out and about looking at the toilets. I have pretty much made up my mind that I'm going with a Toto toilet. The only thing left is whether it will be the Drake II or the UltraMax II. I have issues with the existing toilet getting plugged on top of the smaller than usual rough in. From what I read the Drake II has the better flush, though I could be mistaken, so I'm leaning in that direction. Out of curiousity Terry, have you installed either the Drake II or Ultramax II in smaller than standard rough ins and if so which one fit better.

 

[Jadnashua]

By smaller than standard, do you mean something smaller than a 3" flange? Not sure they exist! Now, an inside mounted flange on a 3" drain is marginal, but keep in mind that most toilet's internal passageways are a little over 2" in diameter, so even one of those is still larger. If it is installed properly and part of it isn't obstructed with a poorly installed wax ring, it still should work.

Now, if it is an offset flange, some designs of those are really crappy.

 

[Jcryan19]

By smaller than usual, I meant the rough in for the toilet is only 11 3/8" instead of the typical 12" rough in. Sorry if I caused any confusion.