Fleck 9100SXT program settings

[John Windon]

Hi,

I recently had a twin demand water softener installed, but my water doesn’t feel soft at all. Also, the brine tank seems to have a lot of water in it. Right now the brine tank is about half full with salt and the water level is about 4’” above the salt. The system has regenerated several times (in each tank) since we had it installed. It looks like it regenerates every thousand gallons. The plumber I used was a neighborhood retired plumber that I have used several times for small projects. I think he may have been out of his depth on this install and I am not sure if the system was programmed correctly. There are a few settings below that definitely don’t seem right, but there might be others too.

Here is what I know about the softener:
Fleck 9100SXT twin tank

96,000 grains (Tanks are 10”x54”) 48,000 grains/tank
Three 1 cu ft bags of resin to fill both tanks (1.5 cu ft./tank)

We use city water (Las Vegas, NV – considered very hard water)

2 adults and three teenagers in the house

Iron: None
Hardness: 18 gpg

Here are the programmed values:
DF: GAL
VT: df16
CT: FI
NT: ---2
TS: U2
C: 20 (doesn’t seem right)
H: 20
RS: rc
RC: 0
DO: 14
RT: 2:00
BW: 10
BD: 60 (doesn’t seem right)
RR: 10
BF: 29
FM: PO.7

Thanks for the help.
John

 

[Bannerman]

What you have is 2 - 1.5 ft3 softeners that are programmed identically, but work alternately so the opposite tank will immediately provide soft water without delay once the online tank's programmed capacity has been consumed.

A few programming suggestions:

VT: df16 - not sure what the 16 refers to. Perhaps a mistype as dF1b (Down Flow - single backwash) would be an appropriate setting.

C: 20 (doesn’t seem right) - You are correct. An appropriate programmable Capacity setting for 1.5 ft3 of resin is 36 (36,000 grains capacity per tank)

DO: 14 - As city water will be chlorinated and therefore there will be no ferrous iron for the softener to remove, the Days Override setting may be increased to as much as 30 days.

RR: 10 - Rapid Rinse time is not critical and so may be decreased to 5 minutes without negative consequences.

BF: 29 - The current Brine Fill setting programs 29 minutes for water to refill the brine tank. If your control valve is equipped with a 0.5 gpm BLFC (normally specified on a label located nearby to the brine line connection) then 14.5 gallons water is currently added to your brine tank which will dissolve 43.5 lbs salt each cycle.

As only 12 lbs salt will be needed to restore 36,000 grains capacity each regeneration cycle, then 4 gallons water will be needed in the brine tank as each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt.

Assuming BLFC = 0.5 gpm, then 0.5 gpm X 8 minutes BF = 4 gallons fill X 3 lbs/gallon = 12 lbs salt. Verify BLFC = 0.5 gpm and if so, reset BD BF to 8 minutes. Other possible BLFC flow rates are 0.125, 0.25 or 1.0 gpm.

BD: 60 (doesn’t seem right) - 60 minutes Brine Draw is usually correct. BD is actually 2 cycles - Brine Draw while brine remains in the brine tank, and Slow Rinse once the brine has been drawn and the air-check valve at the bottom of the brine tank closes to prevent air from being drawn. With the correct quantity of brine, the brine will normally all be drawn within approx 15 minutes, thereby leaving the remaining ~45 minutes for Slow Rinse to push the brine through the resin and to rinse remaining sodium. chloride, calcium and magnesium to drain.

With a large amount of brine in the brine tank, there will have been insufficient time to rinse the resin so the initial flow to fixtures after regeneration was likely salty tasting. The inadequate rinse time was probably the reason for the perception of unsoftened water.

Programming changes should be made immediately but as too much water is already within the brine tank, the quantity of water will not be reduced until after the next upcoming regeneration has concluded. As the tank currently in-service will be regenerated with too much salt, it will not be rinsed thoroughly, neither will the tank now in standby as it has already been regenerated with the incorrect settings. The result of setting changes now made, will not be observable until 2 regenerations have been performed.

With 36,000 grains usable capacity / 20 grains per gallon hardness = 1,800 gallons capacity per tank.

Suggest obtaining a Hach 5 b Total Hardness test kit to periodically verify the hardness of the incoming and softened water.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John Windon]

Thanks for the quick reply. The BLFC is 0.5gpm.
I will make the suggested changes and keep you posted on the outcome. Once I buy some more salt, i will probably run the two regen cycles to see if everything worked out.
One question on your response:
You said,
"Assuming BLFC = 0.5 gpm, then 0.5 gpm X 8 minutes BF = 4 gallons fill X 3 lbs/gallon = 12 lbs salt. Verify BLFC = 0.5 gpm and if so, reset BD to 8 minutes. "
Should i be resetting BD to 8 or BF to 8?
Thanks again.

 

[Bannerman]

Ooopps, my fat-fingered mistake.

BF should be 8 minutes. Keep BD at 60 minutes.

 

[John Windon]

I forgot to mention previously that I have a Hach 5B test kit. Before my first post it was showing 18 total hardness. I made your suggested changes and regenerated both tanks. The extra water in the brine tank has been solved. However, my water softness has not changed. It remains at 18 total hardness. The same as the day I originally posted. I am now concerned the plumber had no idea what he was doing and I have no idea how to check. Any thoughts or recommendations? Appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

 

[Bannerman]

Is the hardness consistently high for both tanks or only when one specific tank is online to provide soft water to your faucets?

In the settings included in your initial post, TS: U2 indicates tank #2 was the tank In-Service at that time, but that should change to TS: U1 when tank #1 is In-Service. Tank #1 will be the tank the control valve is mounted on.

Occasionally, a system assembler will install an incorrect riser tube diameter compared to the distributor adapter installed on the valve. When the riser tube is smaller than the adapter, there will be no seal so hard water entering at the top of the tank will usually leak past directly to the softener's outlet connection, resulting in a hardness leakage situation as you describe.

One simple method to test if there is such a leak is to taste the drain water after advancing the controller to Brine Draw. When there is leakage around the riser, the drain flow will become salty almost immediately whereas when there is no leakage, it will not taste salty for several minutes. Because it is a twin tank softener, you may need to taste test 2X as one tank could be equipped with the correctly mated riser & adapter, while the other tank may not.

 

[John Windon]

It's using tank 2 right now. I will try regenerating so it switches to tank 1. When exactly does the brine draw happen and are you saying to taste the water that is draining. Would that be the water that is draining into the same place as my washing machine?

 

[Bannerman]

BackWash will occur first followed by Brine Draw. Although your initial list shows BW is programmed to be 10 minutes duration, because your taste test is time-sensitive, you would be best to manually advance the controller when you are actually ready to taste as opposed to waiting and potentially missing your tasting window.

If you disconnect the existing long drain tube to install a short piece, you can then advance the controller to BD without needing to run to the washing machine standpipe to taste the flow. Keep an empty bucket ready to catch any excess flow. A short drain line distance will be better to identify if the drain flow becomes salty compared to waiting an extended time for a change to occur when flowing a long distance.

Although it is called 'drain' flow, the drain water remains clean until discharged into the home's sewer/septic system. As a water softener processes water that will be consumed by humans and animals, an air gap separation is required where the softener drain line discharges to the sewer line so as to prevent potential cross-contamination of bacteria back into the softener.

 

[John Windon]

Water still hard. Had someone come out and look at system. They changed the settings and left and said i should have soft water after regenerating both tanks. Still no soft water. But when he was out here, he said the tanks looked like there wasn't enough resin in them. He asked if there was any resin in the tanks of the toilets. I checked all four and nothing. I have been thinking about that for a couple days now. I have also noticed that my toilets don't seem to have as much pressure as normal. Takes a long time to fill the tank. This morning I pulled the screens off two faucets in the master bathroom. Both had resin beads in them. I am guessing the toilet valves are full of them, which is why the pressure has gotten low. I have bypassed the water softener, but i am guessing i will need to flush all the fixtures, replace the toilet vales, and flush the hot water heater. But still need to figure out what is wrong with softener. Any thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

The causes of the beads blowing out during backwash would be too much flow, which is regulated by the DLFC. The reason the beads can reach your toilets and faucets could be
really high flows, plus one of the following:

1. Hole in the bottom basket. This would probably not happen to both tanks, but I guess it could.
2. Really high GPM through the tanks plus lack of a good top basket.

Also check that the input and output are not switched. As you face the display, the input pipe should be on the right.

If the tanks are unpainted, you can shine a bright flashlight through the tank in the dark to see the resin level. 2/3 full is normal.

One more thing could make you lose resin: extra fine resin swapped in without changing the top and bottom baskets accordingly. Standard resin is pretty small. Can you measure the beads you found? Most people could probably not do that.

 

[John Windon]

Just had the water repair guy here. He took the top off the tanks and the top baskets are bigger than the tubes going into the resin tanks. He said the top baskets should be 3/4" and i would also need 3/4" x 1.05 inserts to convert the valve. My resin tanks are about 1/2 full right now, maybe a bit less. He said i would also need a bag of resin. I am going to call the company i purchased the system from and see if they will provide. It seems like the original plumber should have noticed the issue and the repair guy agreed, but like i said at the beginning, i think the retired plumber I used was way out of his skill set. The softener is now on bypass and unplugged pending parts to repair. Will spend the weekend flushing the water heater, toilet fill valves, shower heads, clothes washer, etc.

 

[Reach4]

Good find there.

That does not totally explain the resin loss. If you have regular resin, the expected 2.4 gpm DLFC should not have lifted the resin to the top baskets.

You could check the DLFC (marked 240 I think) or measure the flow by how quickly a backwash fills a 5 gallon bucket, or other size bucket. from the drain. You could throw the unit back in bypass when the 5 gallon bucket is almost full in the expected 2 minutes.

 

[John Windon]

My resin type is Aquafine AQ-100NA (8% Crosslink Resin)

 

[Reach4]

My resin type is Aquafine AQ-100NA (8% Crosslink Resin)

Fortunately that looks like standard size resin.

 

[John Windon]

when you say check the DLFC, what would i be checking for? The plumber took that out, i believe and said it looked ok. Would there be something else?

 

[Bannerman]

Will spend the weekend flushing the water heater, toilet fill valves, shower heads, clothes washer, etc.

The misfitting adapter & riser tube is as earlier described. You didn't specify if you had tasted the drain flow as recommended.

The DLFC is the flow restrictor that controls the height of resin lift during the Backwash cycle. For a 10" softener, the appropriate flow rate is normally 2.4 gpm, but maybe slightly higher if your incoming water is warmer. If the flow rate is too high, then the resin may be lifted too high and maybe flushed to drain during Backwash.

Since the opposite tank will be supplying soft water to your fixtures while the depleted tank is being regenerated, there should be no way that resin should have entered your home's plumbing unless a bottom basket had failed. Hard water will enter the top of the tank-in-service and will flow downward through the resin and up the riser tube. The only way the water flow would be reversed through the tank-in-service to lift the resin and potentially flow out to the house plumbing would be if the softener water connections are reversed.

Check your plumbing connections to the softener as the incoming feed should be the connection that is closest to the front of the softener.

 

[Reach4]

i would also need 3/4" x 1.05 inserts to convert the valve.

The misfitting adapter & riser tube is as earlier described. You didn't specify if you had tasted the drain flow as recommended.

I presume it would have flunked the salt taste test without the right adapters. That will be a big deal to get the 1.05-inch distributor, adapters in place. Sounds like your repair guy has it figured out.

 

[John Windon]

Bannerman - yes, the incoming feed is closest to the front of the softener. No, I didn't taste the drain flow. Is there a way to tell if the DLFC is 2.4gpm by looking at it? And are you saying that both bottom baskets have likely failed too since i have resin in the plumbing? This is starting to seem like a Greek tragedy if both adpater and riser tubes are misfit and the bottom baskets of both tanks are broken.

Reach4 - when you say, "That will be a big deal to get the 1.05-inch distributor, adapters in place. ", does that mean this is a difficult job?

 

[Reach4]

Bannerman - yes, the incoming feed is closest to the front of the softener. No, I didn't taste the drain flow. Is there a way to tell if the DLFC is 2.4gpm by looking at it? And are you saying that both bottom baskets have likely failed too since i have resin in the plumbing? This is starting to seem like a Greek tragedy if both adpater and riser tubes are misfit and the bottom baskets of both tanks are broken.

Reach4 - when you say, "That will be a big deal to get the 1.05-inch distributor, adapters in place. ", does that mean this is a difficult job?

No. It means the softener will then be able to regenerate properly. Tasting the brine would have been the test to diagnose not having those distributor adapter in place.

You can look at the button, but you would have to unscrew a thing or two to see the button. That button is item 32 on pages 13 and 14 of the service manual. There is an upside and right side up.

How hard would it be to play the drain line into a bucket?

 

[Bannerman]

are you saying that both bottom baskets have likely failed too since i have resin in the plumbing?

Normally, the way resin escapes the softener into the plumbing is when a bottom basket becomes broken, especially if there is no bedding gravel installed which will act as a barrier holding the resin away from the bottom basket. Online dealers will often exclude bedding gravel as gravel adds to weight and shipping is usually included so saving weight saves cost for the dealer. Online dealers will also often utilize a great quality Fleck valve paired with lower quality components such as bottom baskets, tanks, resin etc.

The presence of resin in the plumbing does not necessarily mean both baskets have failed, but you would want to check and replace both if one has failed.