WWJ (Six reasons Submersibles Fail)

Users who are viewing this thread

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Yeah I read that. And look what was highlighted and written in BIG letters.

rotate 1.jpg


It seems I have heard that somewhere before. :)
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
yes I am getting that life with small tanks, and should get more life with a bigger tank but I still want to know what I am going to find on my 9.7 drawdown vs my 25gal drawdown, while everyone else is just trying to cycle the pump less times, I am trying to see if there is really a cut off point of how big of a tank you really need to see the same life.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Yeah he is thrilled to hear that because it is rare, as very very few of his customers ever do any maintenance. No one even goes into the well house unless water stops coming out of the faucets.
rotate 2.jpg
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I also thought it was interesting that he said one of the BIG problems is "improperly programmed variable speed drives" instead of just saying the problem IS variable speed drives.
rotate 4.jpg
 

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
We pulled this out last Saturday.

Goulds 1/2-10 pumping into a newer WX302.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    82.7 KB · Views: 462
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    108.8 KB · Views: 420

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
42yrs, did you ask them how many times they had troubles with this system? How rare is it for you to see 30+ on pump life for residential?
 

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
The old Goulds were the best. This is the oldest Ive seen in a few years, but we pull 1/2 dozen or so a year that are 25-30 yrs old. I know there was a new control box installed in '96, not sure about the tank. The well seal had never been pulled, that was a serious pain in the a$$.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
I have been there on those real big pain in a$$ well seals. Pitless adapters can get stuck as well when left untouched for a long time, we have to triple line our 3T smeal to get them to come apart.

I would have to say the tank waterlogged in 96 and the reason for the newer control box but what we don't know is, how long this system could have been short cycling and rapid cycling over the years to truly say how long of pump life you could see with Preventive Maintenance.


With the big storage tanks where continuous duty out weighs on/off, I see about the same life when comparing the same pump to a heavy on/off system but how long would they last with Preventive Maintenance.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
I have a lot of respect for Jennifer Strawn. She did a very good job of gathering information for this article. However, she could have gone a little further and ended with a real conclusion. Lets examine each of the 6 ways she found for submersibles failing.

Improper Voltage or Voltage Surges
While it is true that lightning, power surges, and brown outs can cause a submersible motor to fail, I do not believe this is because of improper voltage coming in from the power supply in the majority of cases. It is possible for a direct hit from lightning, power surge, or a brown out to damage only the motor down in the well, but normally it will also get the TV, microwave, and other appliances in the house as well. This makes it obvious that lightning was the culprit, and also makes it obvious that this causes a small percentage of power problems to the motor. It is also rare for lightning to knock out only one phase in a three-phase system.

I would say that more than 90% of the time, power problems to the motor are caused by chaffing, breaking a wire down the well, or one of the three contacts in a three-phase starter arcing out, which will single phase a three-phase motor to death in short order. Cycling the pump on and off, not lightning, is most often the direct cause of all of these voltage failures. However, electronic controls such as VFD’s are much more susceptible to incoming power problems than standard pump systems.

Improper Wire Size or Bad Splice
These problems are usually caused by an incorrect installation. However, cycling of the pump can still exacerbate the problem. Cycling bends the wire and splice back and forth, which can cause a loose or broken connection. As the wire carries more load during pump start, the more times the pump starts, the more times the motor is exposed to low voltage and higher amperage from starting a pump with wire smaller than required.

Poor Water Flow Over the Motor
It is possible for a motor to be set too deeply, which causes the pump to be fed from above and doesn’t let any flow go past the motor. It has been my experience many times that a motor in a “Rat Hole” condition such as this will only last 3-6 hours of running constantly. So usually this problem is discovered before the well is developed, and the pump can be raised above the incoming water level in the well, or a flow inducer shroud can be added to the pump/motor.

However, in rock wells or bottom feeding wells with a high static water level, usually the high static level must be pumped down for a few minutes before the water starts coming from below and cooling the motor properly. In cases where the pump is cycling on/off every couple of minutes, the motor is shut off before any water starts to come from below to cool the motor. Not only is cycling itself a bad thing, but the problem is made worse as the motor never gets any cooling flow past it during the minute or two it is running.

Improperly Programmed Variable Frequency Drives
This is a new one that has been added to the list only recently. I am surprised that they would actually put in writing that a VFD is now one of the biggest killers of submersible motors. It is true that the VFD itself is the actual reason for the many motor failures. However, the VFD is the industries attempt at reducing cycling without having to use a CSV, that would actually make the pump/motors last longer, as they don’t like that. I find it ironic that the actual tool (VFD) they are using to reduce pump cycling is now listed as one of the major causes of motor failures. While the VFD maybe directly responsible for these motor failures, because the VFD is designed to reduce cycling, these failures are still indirectly related to pump cycling.

Pumps Set on Polyethylene Pipe
As this article states, “when the pump turns on and off, the pipe actually stretches and bounces around. This rubs the wire against the well. The wire fails and the pump has to come out”. It is painfully obvious that the fewer times the pump cycles, the fewer problems you will have with rubbing the wire, no matter what type of pipe is used.

Inadequate Tank Size or a Poorly Maintained Tank

While we have discussed this subject in ad nauseam, this article reiterates the problem of cycling. It is a “proven fact” in the industry that “starting and stopping is bad for the pump/motor and every component in the system”. The larger the tank, the fewer times the pump cycles and the longer everything will last. So it stands to reason that completely eliminating cycling during long term uses of water, as with a CSV, would extend the life of the motor even more than a large tank, that only reduces the cycling somewhat.

My Version of the Seventh Deadly Sin

I believe the biggest killer of submersible motors, was the introduction of the automatic re-setting, internal thermal overload. This was an act to intentionally shorten the average life of pumps and motors. I am old enough to remember when all pumps had MANUAL re-set thermal overloads. A little red Klix-On button on the side or bottom of the control box had to be pushed to re-start the pump after an overload condition. Even 2 wire motors came with a little box the size used for a light switch, which had a single Klix-On button to push after an overload condition.

The customer would call when they were out of water. I would instruct them to push the little red button, and let me know if that fixed it. Well then, “hey, yeah the water is back on”. Then I would get a chance to inform them that the tank, pressure switch, check valve, or something was bad, causing rapid cycling that tripped the overload. Repairs were made, and the pump would live much longer.

After the introduction of the “automatic re-setting overloads”, many times the minute of residual water in the pressure tank would mask the fact that the overload was tripping. Even when the water did shut off, it would automatically come back on in a minute or so, and no one called to complain about being out of water. After a month or so of this, the motor was fried and would not restart. Then what would have been a simple service call for a little maintenance turned into a complete replacement of the pump and motor, all because of the “automatic re-setting overload”.


yes I am getting that life with small tanks, and should get more life with a bigger tank but I still want to know what I am going to find on my 9.7 drawdown vs my 25gal drawdown, while everyone else is just trying to cycle the pump less times, I am trying to see if there is really a cut off point of how big of a tank you really need to see the same life.

You are still trying to prove the impossible. Millions of pumps have been installed and decades of experience by many thousands of pump installers has proven that, “The less the pump starts and stops the longer it will last". Not only does cycling shorten the life of pumps and motors, but it also destroys check valves, pressure tanks, pressure switches, relays, capacitors, and “every component of the system”.

Every pump installer will get a few that last 25+ years, but it is not the norm. And in places like Florida, Texas, and California where people use more water, have heat pumps, and even irrigate all year round in many cases, the life of pumps is much shorter than in colder climates where less water is used and there is very little or no irrigation.

In conclusion, Jennifer’s article list the 6 main reasons for pump system failures. Reading between the lines it is easy to tell that the vast majority of times these six things happen because the pump is cycling. And even though rapid cycling is worse than so-called “normal cycling”, ANY cycling is bad for the pump and system.

And good luck getting homeowners to do any preventive maintenance. Most would not even know what they are looking at IF they actually went into the well house and moved all the bicycles, lawnmowers, old paint cans, and junk that gets packed in around the pressure tank over the years. They usually won’t even go check or make a call when the water starts shutting off for a minute at a time because of the automatic overload tripping.

Greatly reducing the cycling with a CSV and adding a Cycle Sensor for protection eliminates the need for any preventive maintenance. The CSV prevents cycling to death the pump, tank, pressure switch, check valve, etc. And on the chance that the tank does lose some air or there is another problem, the Cycle Sensor will let you know before anything is destroyed.

Sorry for rambling. Hope you had enough popcorn.
 

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
We've learned how to deal with well seals and not drop the plates, but sometimes the rubber bonds like an old tire does to a wheel.
 

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
She did come up with some pretty good research but she still falls short of my research because if cycling the pump was so bad, then I would be seeing very short life on all of our systems and all the components especially on the heavy on/off systems with our small tanks. Pressure switches and starting capacitors(precharge in the tank) but a contactor or point file can fix you up from normal cycling on long term. As you can tell with craigpump's picture and statement, the check valve/valves, wire, and drop pipe held for 42yrs in the well. It is normal for us to see this life because of all those great old wellXtrol tanks that held their precharge with alot of cycling. RL has been the tank that we have found since changing tanks because of price, that can handle all that cycling so far.

She got very bad advice on Poly pipe though because around here I see poly pipe being installed with either torque arrestors or they sleeve the wire with the old Poly pipe from the jet pump that was in place, which leaves no problems to be found later with the wire.

I agree with your seventh deadly sin totally. However, in rock wells or bottom feeding wells with a high static water level, usually the high static level must be pumped down for a few minutes before the water starts coming from below and cooling the motor properly. In cases where the pump is cycling on/off every couple of minutes, the motor is shut off before any water starts to come from below to cool the motor. Not only is cycling itself a bad thing, but the problem is made worse as the motor never gets any cooling flow past it during the minute or two it is running, this I do not agree with and all your problems with the wire in the well, sounds like a problem for your big pumps or we would be using torque arrestors on our PVC drop pipe.

You can say we do less watering in the winter months but all the farms we work for that water year round and the weak wells that get work year round, will be the ones I go off then. Which that 48yr old Goulds pump I have shown on here came from a farm.
 
Last edited:

PumpMd

Kevin
Messages
567
Reaction score
42
Points
28
Location
Oklahoma
craigpump, tell us more about the drop pipe(was they still full of water), check valve/valves in the well, and did it have torque bumpers as my grandpa put it.


In 2013, I had 2 Goulds pumps 40+ and that Burks pump I showed on the list of our pumps from 1969 with that MT-3 Franklin motor. Looks like for 2015 was a 1977 1hp Pumpco.
 
Last edited:

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
The pipe was 65' of 1" poly down the hole with 1.25 in the trench. The torque arrestor, if you could call it that was a 3 sided star looking rubber arrangement, not your typical TA48 or rubber disc.

The built in check was holding, and there is one on the tank T.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,633
Reaction score
1,304
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
She did come up with some pretty good research but she still falls short of my research because if cycling the pump was so bad, then I would be seeing very short life on all of our systems and all the components especially on the heavy on/off systems with our small tanks. Pressure switches and starting capacitors(precharge in the tank) but a contactor or point file can fix you up from normal cycling on long term. As you can tell with craigpump's picture and statement, the check valve/valves, wire, and drop pipe held for 42yrs in the well. It is normal for us to see this life because of all those great old wellXtrol tanks that held their precharge with alot of cycling. RL has been the tank that we have found since changing tanks because of price, that can handle all that cycling so far.

She got very bad advice on Poly pipe though because around here I see poly pipe being installed with either torque arrestors or they sleeve the wire with the old Poly pipe from the jet pump that was in place, which leaves no problems to be found later with the wire.

I agree with your seventh deadly sin totally. However, in rock wells or bottom feeding wells with a high static water level, usually the high static level must be pumped down for a few minutes before the water starts coming from below and cooling the motor properly. In cases where the pump is cycling on/off every couple of minutes, the motor is shut off before any water starts to come from below to cool the motor. Not only is cycling itself a bad thing, but the problem is made worse as the motor never gets any cooling flow past it during the minute or two it is running, this I do not agree with and all your problems with the wire in the well, sounds like a problem for your big pumps or we would be using torque arrestors on our PVC drop pipe.

You can say we do less watering in the winter months but all the farms we work for that water year round and the weak wells that get work year round, will be the ones I go off then. Which that 48yr old Goulds pump I have shown on here came from a farm.

Well you are the one who started this thread and posted the article from WWJ. "Your research" is apparently flawed, and what you think doesn't make a hill of beans difference, because it is not based on any facts. Every other person with any experience on this subject has told you repeatedly that "cycling is the biggest killer of pumps". Cycling is the direct reason most pumps fail, and is indirectly responsible for most of the other ways pumps can fail, no matter how bad you do not want it to be true.

As I have said many times, sure a few pumps will last 20+ years, but that is not mormal. If all of your pumps last more than 20 years, then you are either lying, or you are the luckyest person in the entire world.

Either way you need to quit giving "advice" to people that cycling is not a bad thing. They would not be here asking questions if their pump lasted 20+ years. They are here because they have had "3 pumps fail in 5 years", "never had a pump last longer than 3 years", or the water hammer caused by failures from cycling is "so bad it is knocking stuff off the shelves".

The last one I helped on Friday said his first pump only lasted 7 months, his second only lasted 14 months, and the pump man advised he install a larger pump the third time because "larger pumps are stronger". The pump installer never mentioned that running a 4 GPM garden hose was cycling his pump to death, and didn't even understand that a larger pump would just make things worse. Oh and he had a 44 gallon size tank, which I consider large.

People on this forum want to hear the "proven facts". They don't want to hear that cycling doesn't hurt anything. As one guy that had tried big tanks said, "been there, done that, got a tee shirt that says big tanks don't work".

You have been given the facts by me and all those people in the article you posted. Yet you still think "your research" and a few pictures of a couple of rare pumps that lasted 20+ years proves you are right and EVERYBODY else is wrong.

I like to help people with their pump problems, and I don't even mind educating you on the subject. But I don't have time to keep repeating myself over and over to you just becasue you fail to believe the FACTS even though they have been explained to you many times.

If all your customers are "lucky" enough that their pumps last 20+ years, then they will never come here for advice. Only people who have problems come here. So you shouldn't have to worry that any of your customers will discover the facts and learn there is something better than just letting the pump cycle and hoping for luck.
 
Last edited:

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
We ALWAYS tell customers that pumps are like incandescent light bulbs, the fewer times they turn on, the longer they last.

How in the hell does a CSV cause a tank to waterlog? The CSV has nothing to do with water/air interface or bladder/diaphram. Common sense tells you that filling that water chamber slowly is going to prolong the life of a diaphram/bladder tank. Same with a pressure switch, those things are so cheap these days that after a week of short cycling they fall apart.. The repitive action blows the diaphram, stretches the spring, breaks the contact plates... Lucky for most homeowners the p switch is the weakest link.
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
Pump 1] Grundfos 25 GPM head, 1 hp Franklin, 2] 80 gallon standard tanks. limited time events of short cycling perhaps every three years. Serving a Mfg. business and large home and gardens and lawn - in the hole for 32 years now. Pumping some fine slate powder

Pump 2] Meyers 25 GPM on 1 hp Franklin, 20 gallon diaphragm pressure tank for a small apartment, but generally pumping into a 3,000 gallon cistern. Pressure switch S/O at 80 psi to keep pump running while filling large tank, perhaps 400 gallon drawdown. 24 years no service.

1" poly with standoffs every 30'. I try and change control boxes every 10 or 15 years. Heavy zip ties instead of tape to plug a pump. I leave the ties long, and they act as standoffs. Next one will be all zip ties, and no standoffs - like a porcupine going down the well.

It's all about maintenance. There are no "Jiffy-lube-drive in switch and air tank checkup companies" - The well driller NEVER hands out a maintenance/owners manual. 3/4 of pump houses don't have legible tags on the control boxes, and seems no one writes the well specs near the well head or control box. Big talk here of planned obsolescence of pump motors, but no one owns up to the fact that when a homeowner gets a well, he gets no instructions on keeping it alive. Would you buy car without knowing what engine was in it and when to change the oil? Let all ye pump men who have not sinned throw the first stone! Planned obsolescence for future $$$$$repairs by the well contractors.

My dentist sends me postcards each year to check my teeth. Car dealers send discount cards on oil changes and reminders. How many well guys send out postcards each year reminding homey Joe to check his well tank and switch? Probably a huge chunk of money to be made by doing that and offering a set fee for the basic call. Prevention is always cheaper... but then very few weekend service calls to put the kid in college.

It's a mystery to me how a 10 to $30,000 piece of the most essential equipment on ones property is forgotten until it fails. Like driving your car until the low oil light comes on. Even our vehicle tires talk to us now about their needs.
 
Last edited:

Craigpump

In the Trades
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
158
Points
63
Location
Connecticut
Good tape properly wrapped & stretched doesn't come off unless there is something in the water that dissolves the adhesive.

We used to send out yearly service reminder cards, but when you're only getting a 1-2% response rate you stop.
 

Boycedrilling

In the Trades
Messages
837
Reaction score
185
Points
43
Location
Royal City, WA
Ok, here's another water hammer experience. In the mid '80's I was doing site prep work for a new bank building. I think I demo'd 8 or 9 houses. I was right next to the city fire station. I had made up a valve to get water from the city fire hydrant for dust control. I used a 2" ball valve in making the adapter. I had used this valve on hydrants a number of times with no problems. Now a 2 1/2" steamer port on a hydrant necked down to a 2" valve and then into 2" hose is going to flow 100-150 gpm. When I swung this 1/4 turn ball valve off , I got a huge water hammer. They guys came running out of he fire house to see what had happened. It was a lot louder than a sledge hammer hitting pipe. You could actually see the hydrant shudder with each pressure pulse in the water line. There was not just one hammer, but there were 4 or 5 individual hammers that lessened in intensity as it continued.

Needless to say, I replaced the 1/4 turn ball valve with a gate valve. Of course these days, you can't just hook up to a hydrant. You have to go to the utility Dept and rent their meter & back flow preventer and then pay for the water used.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks