Wells and Irrigation, rather long post

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by hawkmanz, Mar 18, 2008.

  1. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    I posted a while back about pumping a well and using a cistern as a reserve tank. I'm starting to look at the needed gear and was looking at pumps and tanks. Im thinking about either the bettaflo or the hydra flow in the 1 hp class. The BF-3007-122 1 HP 30 GALLONS PER MINUTE 230 VOLT is $456.00 and the hydroflo SPP-3100 is $651.00. Assuming these are both 30 gpm pumps, what makes the spp model $200.00 better? Is it bigger than a 30gpm? Basically, what makes a pump, a great pump and not just one of those $200.00 **** Wayne or Red Jacket or what ever they are pumps?

    Can I get a good quality 2 wire 30 gpm on that site or must I use a 3 wire and control?

    I will be hanging it on steel or pvc pipe down a 20 inch well, what about startup torque? Its not going into a deep well so it can flop around on startup and I cant use a torque arrester here unless I go down and fasten it.

    What I plan to do is pump it 10 feet up, above ground level to a rain gutter that runs along the back of the garage and dumps into the 3000 gal. cistern at the end Then pump it from the cistern via a pressure tank to soaker hoses. Let the well recharge and then pump it again, a day later or so, to keep the cistern full in case a reserve is needed.

    I know it sounds expensive since I need another pump for the cisterin and you may ask, why not just pump to the garden from the well. The reason why is; I would like to keep a reserve and the recharge rate for the well is around 24 hours.

    My last dumb questions are; how far off the bottom of the well should the pump hang, cistern too for that matter? And, should I use steel instead of pvc for the startup torque?

    Sorry for the long post and all comments are greatly appreciated on this mouse trap rig.

    scott
  2. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Hi Scott,

    You must have been on my site looking at the Betta Flo's and the Hydroflo. The Hydroflo is a 3" pump. That's the reason for the large price. And the Hydroflo is not a 30 gpm pump. It's 12 gpm pump. You don't want that one for what your doing.

    How deep is this 20+" well and what is the water level?

    The two wire pump is just fine, you won't need a three wire motor with the control box.

    Either steel or PVC is ok. If you have acidic water, I would use the PVC. Don't worry about the pump flopping around in the well, it won't. A slight twist when it starts and that's all that is going to happen.

    bob...
  3. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Thanks Bob,

    The one well is 72 feet deep and has at least 53 feet of water in it most of the time. That level was checked during a hi summer dorught, so It may be more at wet times. By my calculations, that comes up to about 1000 gallons that will recharge is 24 hours during a drought. (I checked that rechagre rate myself by pumping it down and measuring it over the course of a day)

    I know I need a sub for the well but am leaning towards a cheap pump for the cisterin since it isn't a hassle to work on or replace like a sub (pump up top) and the cisterin is only 7 feet deep. Any suggestions here on the pump to feed the tank and suggestion on the tank? (bladder or solid)? All this, the tank included, will be outside so I will need to drain the system down before the cold sets in.

    Thanks for your help,

    Scott
  4. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Bob,

    Also, which pump that you have is a 30gpm 2 wire? And what is the voltage required? I assume 10 ga. is good enough for a run say 50 feet to the well and then 60 feet down?

    Scott
  5. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Bob,

    Also, which pump that you have is a 30gpm 2 wire? And what is the voltage required? I assume 10 ga. is good enough for a run say 50 feet to the well and then 60 feet down?

    How far off the bottom should the bump be?

    Scott
  6. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    The pump you quoted above is the 30 gpm 1hp. For the cistern I still recommend the 1/2hp sub. It's easy to install and easy to remove. It can lay on the bottom of the cistern. You can even install a CSV in the top of the pump and go with the little WWT 20 tank.

    The sub in the well can be almost to the bottom. Maybe a foot or so off since your water level is quite low. A Pumptec might be a good investment also to protect that pump.

    bob...
  7. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Bob,

    What would the whole deal run me to ship to 20735 zip? 1hp, 30 gpm sub pump, 1/2 sub pump, tank and any necessary controls, pump safety devices. I'm not talking about pipe, fittings and the small stuff.

    I see that a 30 gpm pump and a 80 foot verticle height gets it down to about 20 gpm. How about a bigger 2 wire that does a little better? How much more? Is a 1/2 hp sub pump good enough to fill a tank and run say 200 foot of soaker hose, the black, perferated all around kind, that bubble out all sides? I would guess a 50 foot piece would use about 5 gallons a minuite? I'll check that and get back to you unless anyone else on this forum might have that number.Guess I would need a big pressure tank at 20 gallons a minuite for 200 feet of soaker line. Still on the fence about bladder or a cheaper solid tank.

    One other thing, the cisterin probably has about 3" of muck in the bottom from 30 years of run off from an 80 foot gutter. Asphalt shingle grit, leaves and who knows what else. I plan to pull the top and scrape it out or trash pump it. Is there any way I can get away without doing this and stii have a pump last in those conditions?

    I need to make some decisions and get going on this thing soon.

    Thank You,

    Scott
  8. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    That's a lot of questions.

    The cost of the items you want added up is what it would cost. We pay the freight for an order $500.00 or more.

    The 1/2hp will run several of those 50 foot soaker hoses. That's why I recommend a small tank and a Cycle Stop Valve.

    If you want more water from the 30 gpm, I need to know how much water at what pressure and at what water level.

    bob...
  9. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    You should think about why you need a 30 GPM pump to pump once a day to a cistern from a well that recharges 1000 gallons per day.

    You could get by with the smallest available pump and let it pump whenever water is available. Use a float switch in the well and a float switch in the cistern for control. By keeping the water low in the well as long as there is capacity in the cistern the well will have a higher recharge rate.
  10. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Bob,

    Thats not too many questions, is it? How much for the total and a bigger pump and trash in the cisterin? Im askin for a totaL price because, outside of the pump and a tank, I have no idea what else I should buy or need. A pumptech (or 2) and a cycle stop valve, is that it?

    A 1000 gallons at 20 per min (30 gpm and a 90 foot head) equals 50 a minuite run time. Over a 6 day period, (allowing for recharge) I can fill the cisterin. I guess 50 min isn't too long , to wait for one cycle.

    Bob nh, I really don't like or trust automatic things in a rig like this. It will only be used when needed and monitored closely. That just starts getting too complicated for a new guy like me.

    Thanks Guys,

    scott
  11. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    If agree with BobNH on the well pump. The 30 gpm is overkill. I would go with another 1/2hp just like the one your putting in the cistern. As long as you only have 1000 gpd to work with, the 30 gpm pump isn't needed. So if you want a total price, it will have to wait till I'm back to work tomorrow. I don't have pricing here at home. I'll try to include everything you will need except fittings and pipe.

    bob...
  12. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    My experience is that automatic systems are more reliable than systems that depend on humans. The automatic controls can be set up to operate at the lower level of the well and the high limit of the tank, and human operators can operate the system within those limits. The automatic system will protect the system against human distractions. Furthermore, the automatic system can be set up to increase the production of the well, compared to what it will produce with once-per-day pumping.

    Another protection that should be considered is a low-level switch in the tank to protect the pump in the tank from being operated when the tank is empty.
  13. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    My idea with the 30 gpm is to pump the well down for 50 min., turn it off, walk away and do it again if needed. I dont really need to increase the capacity of the well with or without automatics unless you thing it's a good idea to increase it.

    I know you guys know your stuff but I am just having a problem with how you go about installing a float switch 20 feet down in a well and how it works to shut the pump off before the level drops to the danger point, or is it a timer module based on gpm? Is there a float on a rod that travels 50 feet down with the water level and shuts it down at a predetermined level?

    See what I mean? I dont know s--t here. If someone can convince with the way to do it right and the necessary gear, I'll do it. If not, it's the 30gpm and watching it. Simple is better for me, tired and old.

    scott
  14. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,370
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    It is hard to fit a float switch down in the well. It is best to use something like a Cycle Sensor http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor_geninfo.html to keep the well pump from running dry. This device will look at the amp draw of the motor. When the amps are low, it knows the well is dry and shuts the pump off. Then you set the timer on the Cycle Sensor to restart the pump after a certain amount of time from 1 to 500 minutes. Then a float switch in the storage tank, which you should have plenty of room for, will also shut off the well pump when the storage tank is full.

    Another float switch in the storage tank will keep the booster pump from running if the storage tank is empty. This could also be done with another Cycle Sensor instead of a float switch. Then the booster pump fills the small pressure tank and supplies water to your needs. I don't know how much soaker hose you would need to put out 30 GPM but, it would be a lot. The amount of water you use, must exactly equal the amount produced by the booster pump, to keep the pump from cycling on and off continuously. A Cycle Stop Valve with a small bladder tank will allow you to use from 1 GPM to 30 GPM without the pump cycling. Then the output of your pump will exactly match the amount of water you are using. With the CSV the pump will match what you are using, instead of you having to use enough water to match what the pump is producing.
  15. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    $1197.44. Includes the 30 gpm 1 horse, the 10 gpm 1/2hp sub, a 42 gallon bladder tank, CSV and the Pumptec (to protect the 30 gpm pump). Pressure switch, tank tee, gauge, floats etc. would be additional.

    bob...
  16. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    It's not hard to put a float switch in a 20" well. You attach it to the hanger pipe just above the pump. You can wire it in when you install the pump. It should be connected to "Open on low" to prevent the pump from running dry.

    You can also put the "tank fill" switch, connected to "Open on high", in the circuit that operates the well pump.

    Another switch connected as "open on low" in the circuit to the cistern pump will protect the cistern pump.

    You can connect the well pump to a disconnect and forget about it. It will keep your tank full.

    A float switch is a whole lot simpler than a "cycle sensor".

    The well would keep your tank full a lot better and more reliably than rain. At 1000 gallons per day for a month that is 30,000 gallons, which is 4000 cubic feet per month. If you have 2000 square feet of collection area it would take 24" of rain to deliver the same amount of water. Compare that to the 3" you might get in a summer month when you need water the most, and you will see that pumping from the well is much more significant than runoff. If you add yield by putting the well on automatic operation you can eliminate the dirt problem in the cistern from the well.
  17. hawkmanz

    hawkmanz New Member

    Messages:
    12
    ok,

    Im beginning to get the picture here with the float switches and using a smaller pump in the well. When the tank goes down, it turns the well pump on and refills it until the tank float goes up and disconnects the well pump. Both pumps have switches to stop the pump incase either water source goes too low.

    Now, the next hurdle is finding float switches that will handle the startup load of a pump without burning the contacts up, unless I want to build a relay bank and isolate the reed switch contacts from the pump voltage. Maybe this is where the cycle stop valve comes in and would be better than switches, contacts and relays? I am starting to like what I am drawing up now thanks to you guys.

    I have covered the gutters that collect rain water and still intend to collect it when it rains. No more or at least very little trash will make it in the tank now.

    Where can I get level switches that can handle the start load of a 1/2 or 3/4 horse pump? Probably 200/250 watts, 20 amps???

    Bob, (speedbump) I'll be calling you in the next couple days to order some gear up.

    scott
  18. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I'll be here Scott.

    What BobNH didn't mention is the fact that the well is a low yield, so the float won't protect the pump if it runs out of water before the tank is full. That's where the Cycle Sensor comes in. It could save you a lot of money.

    bob...
  19. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,370
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I forgot about the 20" casing. That is an unusual size but, yes a float switch should fit in that well easily. Just be sure to not let it get tangled up with the wire or pipe down hole. I think Speedbump can help you with those float switches as well.

    A float switch is simpler than a Cycle Sensor but, the Cycle Sensor has no moving parts to hang up on anything. The Cycle Sensor also has a relay that is large enough to handle the load of a 2 HP pump. The Cycle Sensor will also let you set a time between pumping the well down and restarting the pump.

    You may still need a timer connected to the float switch or switches. When the water in the well is pulled down to the float switch, the pump shuts off. The well only has to recover an inch or two before the float switch restarts the pump. This could cause the pump to cycle on and off rapidly as the float switch bobs up and down. A timer connected to the float switch to keep the pump off for 30 minutes or so after the float switch drops, may be needed to keep the float switch from bouncing the pump on and off. Water flowing into the well could also cause the switch to bounce up and down.

    You also need to put the float switches in the storage tank in a stilling well. This would be a 12" or 20" piece of perforated pipe that protrudes above the surface of the water in the storage tank. Installing the float switches in this stilling well will keep the wave action of the water entering the tank from bobbing these switches up and down, which causes the pump to cycle rapidly.

    Double float switches can also solve this problem. One float switch up high in the tank shuts off the pump, while another float switch installed lower restarts the pump. The float switches in the well need to work in the opposite positions. This would eliminate the need for the timer but, might need a relay or two to tie all the float switches to the pumps.

    A couple of Cycle Sensors, which have a timer built in, could replace the safety float switches in the well and the storage tank. However, you will still need a float switch to shut the pump off when the storage tank is full.
  20. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    The concerns about float switches are not a problem if the switch is selected and installed properly. Water flowing into the well at 1000 GPD (less than 1 GPM), and probably beneath the surface, is not going to bounce the switch.

    A switch on a cable, such as is used in a sump pump, can be set to have a wide range of operation. In a 20" well I would set it to about a 12" range. That would give you 3 to 4 minutes on-time and a 20 minute cycle of pumpdown and recharge time. You can use it with a timer to provide longer recharge interval.

    You don't need a stilling well. The same installation prevents the switch from bobbing up and down in the tank. There is a dead-zone on a cable-supported switch that will control over a zone that is large enough to prevent wave action from operating the switch. A 1/2 HP pump, 5 to 10 GPM, is not going to cause a lot of distrubance in a 3000 gallon cistern. You can put the inlet below the "full" level and you probably would not even see the motion.

    If Speedbump doesn't have direct-acting switches for a 1/2 HP pump they are available from USA BlueBook and I can suggest a part.
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