Well Water Changes

[joejvj]

I have a private residential well that was put in 15 years ago, and has always produced clear, good tasting, and safe to drink water.

A few months ago, we woke up to find deep orange colored water coming out of the tap. Smelled kind of metallic and stained everything. From the research I've done, I am pretty sure this is iron bacteria. I called a well company to come out and take a look at it. They were to come out at the end of the week. But two days later, the water cleared up on its own and looks clear and tastes great. Nevertheless, the well company came out and they convinced me that I needed water treatment or the problem will come back. I'm not familiar with water treatment equipment, but they put in a venturi valve, some sort of air removing tank to go with it, and a large cylinder containing a ph neutralizer and iron removing media. They said my iron was at 4 ppm, pH was 5.0, and hardness was 3 grains. I spent $2,000 based on their recommendation.

Two months later, the same thing happened. Orange water out of the faucets and in the toilet bowls. This time I called a different water treatment/well company. They came out, tested the water, then told me I need this $5,000 Halovac system to disinfect the water. I was at wits end, so told them to do it and scheduled it for the following week.

Another day goes by and the water turns back to normal. Clear as a bell and good tasting. So I called the company back and told them what happened. They told me that this would happen if I ran a lot of water through the system (which I didn't, just normal every day usage). They said the orange water would come back in a few days. Well, it’s been a week now and the water is still crystal clear.

This may be a coincidence, but it seems to happen a day or two after very heavy rains. We have been in a drought for almost two years here (Western North Carolina) and in the past few months we are breaking all rainfall record totals. Don’t know if this has anything to do with problem.

Anyone have any recommendations or ideas on what’s going on- and what I need to do to correct this problem?

Thanks for your replies.

 

[joejvj]

Does iron bacteria contamination happen in the well, or does it come from the water table?

Will shocking the well help me with this intermittant iron bacteria problem? The well has never been shocked.

BTW, I had the well pump replaced 2 years ago. Is it common practice for a well company to shock or disinfect the well after doing this?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Slusser]

You are assuming you have IRB, you may not, but you do have 4 ppm of ferrous iron which is very high iron to live with. It should have discolored (orangish/reddish brown) any water you left sit in a glass or something else in just a few minutes.

You paid way TOO MUCH for the equipment you bought. And air injection will not prevent an IRB problem and can actually make it worse, you have to kill the IRB and shocking a well can do it and it can make the problem worse.

Halovac reminds me of a UV light. You can not use a UV light to treat IRB.

Check your toilet tanks at and below the water line for a slimy, snotty slippery clear to black substance, if you find that, you have IRB, if not and it is not due to cleaning the toilet tank, you don't have IRB.

 

[joejvj]

I don't see any of the slime in the toilet bowls as you described. But when the orange water was present last week, the surface of the water in the toilet bowls looked like it had some oil or sort of a sheen on the surface. The water treatment guy told me that this is a sign of iron bacteria.

 

[Speedbump]

I wouldn't listen to either one of these guys. They both ripped you off.

It sounds like you have a surface water well with that much iron and a pH of only 5. The only thing the first guy did right was put a neutralizing filter in.

Do you have a jet pump or a submersible pump? It sounds like your just getting shots of iron off the pipes from a lost prime situation or maybe the submersible getting a shot of air from the well now and then. This will also stir things up in the system and knock iron off the pipes and send it into the house.

 

[joejvj]

That's the thing that baffling- My well was dug in '95, it is a 6-inch well, 302 ft deep @ 12 gpm.

When the discolored water started to clear on its own, you could fill a glass of water and leave it on the counter. In 15 min time span, it would turn yellow. Now that the water its running clear again and doesn't smell metallic, this doesn't happen. The 4ppm iron was measured when the water was at its worst. I will get an independent water test and see what it is now, when it's good.

If anybody out there knows of a reputable water treatment guy that services Western North Carolina (Asheville area) please let me know.

 

[Gary Slusser]

The first guy did good for a local dealer, $2000 including installation for an air injection system, AN filter and a softener, others would be a grand or more higher.

The second guy should be shot if all he did for $5K was a solution feeder and retention tank and a couple gallons of bleach!

Oil film on the toilet tank water usually means manganese reducing bacteria but, IRB, MRB or sulfate reducing bacteria, all must be killed to get rid of them. The individual families of the various types of bacteria that make up reducing bacteria types live in and on the ground in or out of water, including groundwater, in and around a well.

As Speedbump said, you may be seeing rust or IRB build up in the well, the pump's drop pipe or pressure tank and plumbing breaking off. Your pump may be set at a depth like 100' off the bottom, where under it is stagnant water and rust or IRB build up. IRB colonies can over populate, starve and the ncollapse causing this problem. While the colony is growing, the iron content of the water will decrease, and increase again when the colony increases in size.

The Halovac system, just what is that? Pictures might help.

 

[joejvj]

The first guy did not install a softener. Just the venturi, an air tank, and a cylinder full of calcite.

The second guy wants to install this Bioshield product for $5K which he called a Halovac system:

http://www.berrysystemsinc.com

 

[joejvj]

Thanks for info! You guys are great!

Is this "bad seal" you refer to happen between sections of the casing pipe? Just curious are these pipes glued together or is there some type of rubber gasket or seal between sections?

I still believe our heavy rains (after 2 years of drought) have something to do with this. Does the surrounding earth retract away from the casing during drought conditions, then push up against it when it gets wet?

 

[Speedbump]

The big problem with drillers using rotary drills is that they make a larger hole than the casing they are going to put in that hole. They are supposed to seal that space around the casing with cement, or some kind of expanding filler. Lots of times, this step is not done correctly or at all and surface water can easily migrate down along the casing and contaminate your water.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Ok, somehow I saw a softener included and it wasn't, but it should have been with your 3 gpg of hardness plus the added hardness of the AN filter that will be like 8-12 gpg. Without the softener his price was very high for what you got.

The guy sold you a 5600 control on what looks like maybe a 13 or 14" tank and the spec sheet for the 5600 says not to use it on larger than a 10" dia tank for a filter application, or 12" for a softener. They are for a 1.5 cuft filter and a 2 cuft softener. The Mod# on the label somewhere on the tank, such as 1252 is the size; 12" x 52". Also, he didn't sue a Fleck by pass valve on the filter. That's being very cheap. And had he used a 1" SS bypass, he wouldn't have reduced the size of the plumbing.

I see many guys doing that but it is wrong, especially on a heavy mineral filter like an acid neutralizer because it won't backwash the mineral correctly. And the air injection vent tank is way too small. Although it is a bit different than I am familiar with, the gray plastic thing in the red circle in the picture is the air injection venturi.

If you have a rock bore well, you can have water from above the bedrock recovering the well but you may not be able to 'fix' the problem of it getting into the well without spending a few thousand dollars, and there is no guarantee the fix will actually stop your water from being acidic. It probably will not stop an IRB or iron problem anyway.

I not sure that the guy misdiagnosed your water quality but he certainly is using equipment that I wouldn't and that isn't doing the whole job and an AN filter that is going to fail to do what it is supposed to because it may not be backwashed successfully because of the control used or the pump you have; if it can't deliver the proper volume of water.

The depth of the well has little to do with acid water and carbon dioxide is not the only cause of acidic water.

Has this water ever had an odor? If so, of what? Is the odor in both the cold and hot or just the hot?

Unless you have a cold water odor, the air injection is not doing anything good for you. It's too small to remove much iron and I don't understand the pipe out the bottom but if that is water you're going to use, it is a bad design because the rust goes into the AN filter and that's not good, especially with an undersized control valve.

IMO the Berry System thing is not worth anywhere near $5000. Maybe $700-$1000 with installation and a years' supply of whatever they use in the housing. If you were a DIYer or wannabe, I'd suggest a system I have used for high iron, IRB etc. for about 15 yrs. that is under $800 delivered plus a correctly sized special carbon filter that you could use that 5600 on and then use the Clack WS-1 that comes with the carbon filter on the AN filter.

And although I don't like shocking wells except in a case like yours, you can shock the well killing the bacteria and repeat as needed once every 12-18 months but, you may need disinfectant equipment instead of the air injection.

 

[joejvj]

I couldn't find a label on the tank, but I took some photos of it below. Is changing out the backwash unit something I can do myself? I've done PVC irrigation before. What do you suggest for a replacement? The backwash output line is reduced and fed to a small diameter poly pipe. Would putting a larger pipe on the backwash output help?

The way this is plumbed is that the line from the pressure tank feeds into the top of the air tank, then a line at the bottom of the air tank feeds into the filter.

I don't detect any odor at either the hot or cold water. However, during the discolored water events, a very strong metallic smell and taste is present.

Anyone know roughly what a downhole camera inspection costs?

 

[Gary Slusser]

Now I see a by pass valve.

The label is clear with black type, somewhere under the epoxy on the straight sides of the tank.

It looks alike 14" x 65" tank, that holds 3 or 3.5 cuft. That tank is much larger than a 2.0 cuft.

All you'd change is the control valve on the tank. It's easy to do, unscrew one and screw the other on.

The vent tank is very odd. Usually the water would go in and out of the top, not out the bottom but, since yours does, any dirt build up is going to go into the filter instead of allowing you to drain the dirt off the bottom like once a month. That way the filter doesn't have to deal with the dirt. You have a really bad design IMO. Plus the vent tank is way too small to do anything but cause problems.

A camera inspection can run from $250-$800 depending on local variables and how much the guy wants to charge. Sammy does camera inspections and could give you a better idea of cost. He also tends to be anti water treatment in cases like yours. Call around your area and find out who if anyone does camera work and installs Jaswell seals and what it all costs. Then compare to treating the water and decide which way you want to go.

The drain line from the filter may be too small, it looks like the normal 5/8" OD 1/2" ID and the filter should be using maybe a 10 gpm DLFC (drain line flwo control in the valve) or larger. But the control valve is not going to be able to successfully backwash more than 1.5 cuft of mineral.

The plumbing is simple PVC as you see.

I'd go back to the guy and tell him he has misapplied equipment and ask what the air injection is supposed to do and see if he won't remove the stuff; which he probably won't but you could go to small claims court. But find the label on the filter first.

 

[joejvj]

Here's the label on the filter

The little air tank had a sleeve on it that I was able to lift up. A similar label said the size on it was 5X35.

I will call around on Monday and see who does camera work in my area. I talked to my neighbors and no one had any recommendations. So I guess I'll
just start looking through the yellow pages.

Hey, any of you guys need a weekend vacation in Asheville, NC? It's a real touristy area. I own a rental cabin in the woods and I'll give you free rent for the weekend!

 

[Gary Slusser]

How about helping Joe with a few examples of the cost of a camera inspection. And an idea of how many times the camera doesn't find problems. And how many times the person still needs water treatment equipment. Maybe a ball park example of the cost of a Jaswell seal. I'm sure he would appreciate it although he isn't in your area.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Since you suggested a camera inspection and possibly a Jaswell seal, Joe and then I asked you about the cost and then I asked how many times nothing is found with the camera inspection. If you don't want to help Joe with that, that's fine with me but I don't see any discrediting your opinion. No one said anything about your suggestion, just the prices and possibly of not solving the problem.

 

[joejvj]

By the way if you go to my website and click on the Our Services page, scroll to the bottom and there is a video of a camera inspection. You can view the bad seal below the casing that was causing a silt problem.
sammy
www.tylerwellandpump.com

Wow- great video! The inside walls of the casing look pretty grungy. You can clearly see the water leaking out. Is that steel casing?

I'm assuming that the jaswell seal is a type of sleeve that seals off the area of the leak. What holds the jaswell seal against the insides of the casing?

 

[joejvj]

If the casing is okay, then the well should be flushed.
www.tylerwellandpump.com

By "flushed", do you mean shocking/disinfecting the well?

 

[Masterpumpman]

It sounds like a leaking casing seal!

sammyhydro11 said it right, usually a low PH in a deep well indicates shallow surface water entering the well where the casing is seated in the rock. A down hole camera (when the water is unclear) should show where the surface water is entering the well.

Water conditioning is great to treat bad water however in this case I see it may only be a Band-Aid for the real problem. . . a well problem.

I suggest that you find a trusted; qualified; experienced and NGWA Certified driller in your area to run a down hole camera. Not all drillers are qualified to diagnose your problem. If the driller doesn't have a Down Hole Camera, find one that does.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Although I've never done it, I'm very familiar with camera inspections in rock bore type wells to 500'. I've actually studied it.

The intrusion problem area can be anywhere below the end of the casing down to the bottom of the well regardless of its depth.

Recall this is a guess or theory that there is intrusion 'surface' water causing the discoloration AND the acidic water. That may not be true, so the camera is used to find out if that is true or not. IMO that can be a pricey gamble.

And I don't know of any way to find out exactly where in the well the low pH water is coming into the well because that water looks exactly the same as the rest of the water that doesn't have the problem. So unless the camera inspection is done when the water is discolored, you can't find the intrusion area with a camera.

Lets say they find a discolored area but the water is clear, that doesn't mean the acidic water is coming in there.

Am I correct Sammy and Porky; or anyone else?

Assuming the intrusion area is found, when you get the estimated price to fix the problem in the well with a liner and Jaswell seal, you may vote no and go with water treatment equipment like most people do to begin with because there is no guarantee you won't still need water treatment equipment after the usually very expensive "fix" (recall no one has given any info on that cost yet).

A high estimate of my delivered price with all new equipment to clarify the dirty water and correct the acidic water is a total of $1700; that is for larger equipment than you may need.

My guess to the price for a Jaswell seal is maybe as high as $3,000-$10,000+, and it is in addition to the camera inspection price that may end up being $1,000 if there are not many doing it in your area.

So my advice is to go get your money back for the equipment you have and go with the correctly applied water treatment equipment bought from me or anyone of your choice and install it yourself in a few hours or hire a plumber to install it. That also prevents the cost of the yard being torn up with a drilling rig or pump truck to put in a Jaswell seal.

A garden hose may not pull the well down more than a few feet if at all.

BTW, the best way to "flush" the well is air lifting, walking beam purging or bailing etc. or, to drop your pump or a larger one to the bottom of the well and pump it off as deep as possible; or at least to the pumping level (the depth the recovery rate gpm prevents pumping the level any deeper than with the pump being used).

Porky or Sammy etc., how am I doing guys, did I miss anything or fail to explain anything clearly or totally? Is that good advice or what?

Question for yous guys (that's Philly speak), with a Jaswell seal, does that reduce the usable storage volume of the well and the recovery rate too, or just one or the other of them and if so which one or both? I say both. If so other than a new well or drilling this one deeper, or more seals, what do you suggest then?