Water Heater Choices

[Master Plumber Mark]

you would do well with the 75 gallon Rheem unit.. we are pretty happy with them so far
and have gotten a pretty good life span out of them.... just throw w thermal expansion tank on it
and it should last a good while....

Remember , you can always turn the 75 gallon gas heater up on HIGH too if you really want
to provide a lot more hot water....

 

[Jdavis37]

you would do well with the 75 gallon Rheem unit.. we are pretty happy with them so far
and have gotten a pretty good life span out of them.... just throw w thermal expansion tank on it
and it should last a good while....

Remember , you can always turn the 75 gallon gas heater up on HIGH too if you really want
to provide a lot more hot water....

I must be getting old That's actually purty! I have resisted the power vent for so long I lost objectivity. I have clung to our atmospheric vent mostly due to passive means nothing will break. But once I get past that and accept a hole in side of garage, going with this is no doubt the simplest most cost effective solution. The Phoenix unit looks to be made well and will probably last longer. But if we only stay here 5 to 7 more years in this home a standard 75 gallon power vent water heater starts to make sense.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

if that vertex or phoenix ever breaks down, their are not a lot of folks
that service that stuff ---at least in our area... I now of 2 that have give the owner fits...
also the Smith Vertex has a condensate
drain that must be installed to a drain....from what I was told it puts out some extremely
caustic byproduct...almost eats the floor drain its going into....you cant just drop it to the garage floor

 

[Dana]

Thx for reply and good catch. I went back anbd checked the specs for the system we actually had installed in 2008. I did have a quote for a 96K system but did not go with that supplier. The system we installed is a 70K BTU Bryant 2 stage gas furnace for the upstairs system. So a little less BTU to factor in.

I will double check later to make sure I am not lying but I believe I have the existing water heater output maxxed out on temperature. It is quite hot when it starts. I just don't get enough heat in winter to fill the tub. At one time Bradford White made a 60 gallon lower BTU water heater but it was very expensive and I did not feel secure enough to go with it. I don't think they make it any longer.

The most cost effective solution sounds like a power vent AO Smith or equivalent 75 gallon water heater and more than likely an upsize to the gas line if needed. The Phoenix Lite water heater would offer a faster recovery albeit with a water heater brand that potentially could be harder to find service if needed. The polaris and Vertex models start becoming pricey.

I agree that a tankless would be an exercise in tedious for the tub. Can imagine slow would be the operative word and getting to 199K BTUs would not be cheap. I need to check my existing gas line but it may be able to supply the 76K BTU wise. No free lunch. Had builder installed a 4 inch vent I could look at atmospheric vented models.

The furnace is still ridiculously oversized for most houses. That is enough burner to maintain 70F indoors in my ~2400' (+ 1800' of insulated basement) sub-code 1920s antique down to about -45 to -50F. (If I moved my house to Fairbanks AK that would be about right!) A typical 2500' 2x4 house built in the 1990s with clear-glass double panes and R13s in the walls, R25-R30 in the attic would have a heat load between 25,000-30,000 BTU/hr @ +15F (the 99% outside design temp up in Henderson), less in most of the state. There will be exceptions both below and above that range, but you'd probably have to crack some windows open to see even 50,000 BTU/hr unless its the air-leakiest house in NC, or maybe if the ducts & furnace were in the attic above the insulation, and leaking at the seams. Even at low fire the thing is probably more than 1.5 x oversized for the actual load, (not that it's worth swapping out until it's dead.) If the house is more like ~5000 square feet it might be right-sized.

Just about any 75 gallon hot water heater would have you covered. Most will have burners north of 50,000 BTU/hr, many north of 75,000 BTU/hr (to avoid having to EF-test it). If you're only going to be there another 5-7 years there's no "payback" in going with a condensing hot water heater.

 

[Reach4]

if that vertex or phoenix ever breaks down, their are not a lot of folks
that service that stuff ---at least in our area...

Don't many areas not have people who service water heaters anyway?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Don't many areas not have people who service water heaters anyway?

Why Yes their are, a very good point..
When you get into these hybrids you might not be getting parts
for them in a timely manner.. Then if it goes out 7 years down the road and
that model has been dis-continued -- then you got troubles

Even with a rheem power vent unit over 10 years old you might have a very hard time
getting a new blower motor or glow plug or controls for one ...but you have only sunk half
the money into one of those versus a Vertex too....

Some areas might have only one guy in 50 miles who knows how to
work on them....that makes it even more fun.. You will probably get that
vertex fixed eventually...

Lots of people claim to know how to work on tankless too....
Ask anyone who bought an Eternal Tankless water heater and the fun they
are having right now.....
Look on the tankless site for people begging to figure out what the error codes are
all about

Generally speaking...
The more simple you keep things , your troubles will probably be a lot less
down the road.....

 

[Jdavis37]

if that vertex or phoenix ever breaks down, their are not a lot of folks
that service that stuff ---at least in our area... I now of 2 that have give the owner fits...
also the Smith Vertex has a condensate
drain that must be installed to a drain....from what I was told it puts out some extremely
caustic byproduct...almost eats the floor drain its going into....you cant just drop it to the garage floor

Agree.... service/parts are a concern anytime I look at things built by smaller companies. They may be great products but if the company is not set up to service after the sale, or they go bankrupt, etc. one may own an expensive throw away item. I worry less about parts, etc when the purchase price is low but the Phoenix is NOT inexpensive. After a little reading etc. the vertex is far less thrilling for me. At the moment I am leaning toward a standard 75 gallon water heater with power vent. Cost will not be cheap since we'll have to cut holes in the wall of the garage for the vent, etc. But it will certainly be cheaper than either a Vertex or the Phoenix. I wrote HTP last night via their on line form. Have not heard back yet but I was curious if there were any installers in the area or if I would have to buy the water heater, have it shipped and then find an installer. The latter would be avery near fatal. Not answering in a reasonable time period is the same!

 

[Jdavis37]

The furnace is still ridiculously oversized for most houses. That is enough burner to maintain 70F indoors in my ~2400' (+ 1800' of insulated basement) sub-code 1920s antique down to about -45 to -50F. (If I moved my house to Fairbanks AK that would be about right!) A typical 2500' 2x4 house built in the 1990s with clear-glass double panes and R13s in the walls, R25-R30 in the attic would have a heat load between 25,000-30,000 BTU/hr @ +15F (the 99% outside design temp up in Henderson), less in most of the state. There will be exceptions both below and above that range, but you'd probably have to crack some windows open to see even 50,000 BTU/hr unless its the air-leakiest house in NC, or maybe if the ducts & furnace were in the attic above the insulation, and leaking at the seams. Even at low fire the thing is probably more than 1.5 x oversized for the actual load, (not that it's worth swapping out until it's dead.) If the house is more like ~5000 square feet it might be right-sized.

Just about any 75 gallon hot water heater would have you covered. Most will have burners north of 50,000 BTU/hr, many north of 75,000 BTU/hr (to avoid having to EF-test it). If you're only going to be there another 5-7 years there's no "payback" in going with a condensing hot water heater.

Not to turn this into an HVAC design thread, I did have 3 different competent installers measure things out with heat load and the vice versa. it is a 2 stage system and runs much of the time in the lower stage. When we drop in single digits that changes. Either way our gas bills dropped and the heat has been fine overall. In hindsight the real question may have been why didn't we just do a heat pump though I am not a real fan. We installed a heat pump 2 years later downstairs. We had completely new ducts installed upstairs and the measured leakage was around 1%. We will sell the house before it needs to be replaced.

As far as payback I am not that concerned. We have remodelled both bathrooms, the half bath and the kitchen. I knew going in we will not make a profit on those costs but also realized the remodel was for us to enjoy. The home no doubt will sell easier due to the remodels but most of what we did was for us (we did avoid excessive customization so we would not drive buyers away). But payback does apply here when making choices and i agree that paying $1000 more for the "better" water heater is most likely overkill. I like the idea of having near endless hot water and the nicer water heaters certainly recover faster. But I do sense a 75 gallon 76K BTU water heater is probably our most cost effective solution.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I wrote HTP last night via their on line form. Have not heard back yet but I was curious if there were any installers in the area or if I would have to buy the water heater, have it shipped and then find an installer. The latter would be avery near fatal. Not answering in a reasonable time period is the same!


any Rheem plumber should be able to install this water heater . its no big deal.
its not extremely hard to bore a hole through a garage wall for a 3 inch pvc pipe
You can go up to 60 feet if necesary
the hardest part is to make it look civilized on the outside wall
It just takes a couple of dummies to lift the thing up on a stand
or being its a FVIR unit, just install it on a couple of 8 inch concrete blocks .......

 

[Jdavis37]

I wrote HTP last night via their on line form. Have not heard back yet but I was curious if there were any installers in the area or if I would have to buy the water heater, have it shipped and then find an installer. The latter would be avery near fatal. Not answering in a reasonable time period is the same!


any Rheem plumber should be able to install this water heater . its no big deal.
its not extremely hard to bore a hole through a garage wall for a 3 inch pvc pipe
You can go up to 60 feet if necesary
the hardest part is to make it look civilized on the outside wall
It just takes a couple of dummies to lift the thing up on a stand
or being its a FVIR unit, just install it on a couple of 8 inch concrete blocks .......

Our home has a brick front and rest is siding. Last year we decided enough was enough and replaced all the siding and trim with hardie. I will admit to learning a lot about Hardie and the 160 or so pages of installation requirements if you ever expect half a chance of navigating a warranty claim. Took some time but the installers we chose did follow the rules as best I could tell and the look is very good. Garage location of the water heater is on a brick foundation about 24 inches off the floor, located right next to the outer garage wall. Distance is minimal but you are very correct about having to find someone who knows how to cut into Hardie and not mess the heck out of things. Beyond that, assuming we have enough inlet gas, the rest should be fairly simple. But I have learned through trial and error that it is worth the time to find a GOOD installer. In this area we have a surplus of installers, many working very cheaply and often doing less than great work. This may be true of all areas but it seems quite prevalent here.

The main concern of course is not messing up the siding. I have gotten over the power blower. I do prefer passive ventilation.. nothing to break But replacing the 3 inch b vent at this point is not a good option. I do believe this thread has convinced me to stay with a standard 75 gallon water heater with power vent and start enjoying simpler bath fills. The high recovery aspects of the Phoenix Light Duty is attractive but hard to justify the risk (company) and the cost.

 

[Jdavis37]

I am curious though as to how loud the blowers are on either the Rheem or AO Smith. While the water heater will be in my garage, our main entertainment room is the room over the garage. Is impossible to gauge how loud anything is by watching a video but some subjective feedback is appreicated.

 

[Jadnashua]

The spec sheet likely lists the sound level. Some people do find the noise objectionable, but that very much depends on where it is relative to where you are and what else is going on at the time.

But, the things generally don't come on often to just overcome standby losses, and often, in the morning, you may be leaving afterwards, and if in the evening, it's more likely before you go to bed, so it would then depend on how far the bedroom is from the thing verses the entertainment room (where you'd likely have the TV or stereo on).

 

[Jdavis37]

The spec sheet likely lists the sound level. Some people do find the noise objectionable, but that very much depends on where it is relative to where you are and what else is going on at the time.

But, the things generally don't come on often to just overcome standby losses, and often, in the morning, you may be leaving afterwards, and if in the evening, it's more likely before you go to bed, so it would then depend on how far the bedroom is from the thing verses the entertainment room (where you'd likely have the TV or stereo on).

Thanks. The Rheem sheets list new whisper quiet blower fan but nothing about decibels I can find. I had seen several complaints about loudness but also realize that is subjective. The water heater is directly below this room but off to the right hand corner. Stereo would easily block any noise but TV might possibly be affected. Should have no impact on bedrooms whatsoever. Probably a nothing issue but figured is free to ask before buying!

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

after you put a pipe out of the home you simply point it downwards with an ell...
and possibly extending it closer to the ground...Ideal location is about 20 inches off the ground
the sound seems to muffle and gets absorbed by the earth.....

we have never had a problem with the newer units....

 

[Jdavis37]

after you put a pipe out of the home you simply point it downwards with an ell...
and possibly extending it closer to the ground...Ideal location is about 20 inches off the ground
the sound seems to muffle and gets absorbed by the earth.....

we have never had a problem with the newer units....

Thanks Mark,

I am starting to remember why I backed away from this the last time when I should have installed the 4 inch b vent (but it would have created delays and bathroom remodels at the time were very far behind schedule). I really could not go for a 90 degree turn folowed by a 7+ foot vent aimed toward the ground on back side of garage. I have never been a real fan (pun intended) of power vents for obvious reasons but the noise concern adds to my concerns (resell if nothing else). I wish I could hear one to better judge.

That leaves direct vent options and lastly just going with a standard 50 gallon tank that has a higher recovery than my current heater. This then goes full circle as I'll need to determine how many BTUs my 3 inch b vent can handle (about a 14 foot run with 2 45 degree bends (taking it about 3 feet horizontally versus rest of length vertical). Probably time to find a knowledgeable installer for various quotes. Course I am typing this while waiting to fill the tub.. not enough hot water for a single fill tonight! Ack!

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Thanks Mark,

I am starting to remember why I backed away from this the last time when I should have installed the 4 inch b vent (but it would have created delays and bathroom remodels at the time were very far behind schedule). I really could not go for a 90 degree turn folowed by a 7+ foot vent aimed toward the ground on back side of garage. I have never been a real fan (pun intended) of power vents for obvious reasons but the noise concern adds to my concerns (resell if nothing else). I wish I could hear one to better judge.

That leaves direct vent options and lastly just going with a standard 50 gallon tank that has a higher recovery than my current heater. This then goes full circle as I'll need to determine how many BTUs my 3 inch b vent can handle (about a 14 foot run with 2 45 degree bends (taking it about 3 feet horizontally versus rest of length vertical). Probably time to find a knowledgeable installer for various quotes. Course I am typing this while waiting to fill the tub.. not enough hot water for a single fill tonight! Ack!

I have seen many water heaters installed in garages with only a
3 inch vent when it should have had a 4 inch one.. Someone just installed a 4x3
reducer on top of the hood cap and away they went with it..... Being in the garage
it did not matter because of the open ventilation...

You are making a federal case out of this . The power vent will not sound much louder than
the furnace does when it comes on ....

 

[Jdavis37]

I have seen many water heaters installed in garages with only a
3 inch vent when it should have had a 4 inch one.. Someone just installed a 4x3
reducer on top of the hood cap and away they went with it..... Being in the garage
it did not matter because of the open ventilation...

You are making a federal case out of this . The power vent will not sound much louder than
the furnace does when it comes on ....

Thanks. I was fine with power vent (sort of).. I dislike having to have a power vent versus atmospheric as it is another part to fail. Blower fails, no hot water. But it is what it is. Unfortunately for me I saw on this and other forums many complaints about the blower noise and without having the ability to hear for myself it became a concern. My wife is more sensitive than am I to such. Our upstairs furnace is very quiet and unless you feel for the air movement it is not audible in the home. When in attic you can hear the air flow but not so much the blower fan. If the water heater blower fan is of similar sound then I wholeheartedly agree that I was mislead and joined via being overly concerned. Course by the time you find out it is too loud it is also too late!

If/when we do an upgrade believe it or not I'll have the work permitted. Meaning I won't couple up a 4 inch vent to my 3 inch b vent unless it is legitimate. I have not done ventilation design since around 1983 but perhaps time to determine what load my b vent will actually handle. If I CAN go atmospheric I will. No parts to break.

Tonight though did suck as I had to do a half tub fill and wait 40 or so minutes to complete the fill to have sufficient heat. Lots of back pain and the hot water really helps. Maybe this was a reminder to not stop the upgrade this time!

 

[Jdavis37]

I have seen many water heaters installed in garages with only a
3 inch vent when it should have had a 4 inch one.. Someone just installed a 4x3
reducer on top of the hood cap and away they went with it..... Being in the garage
it did not matter because of the open ventilation...

I did take a quick look at b vent ratings for BTUs (appliance attached). From what I can easily tell it seems 58K would work with some probability 60K BTU might work (In need to measure length of my current b vent).

If so the 4 to 3 inch converter would work. Not only are the water heaters themselves less expensive, so too will the labor/installation.

This 60K BTU AO Smith seems to offer pretty good delivery:

AO Smith GCRX-55 (60K BTU, 103 Gallons 1st hr delivery, 61 gph recovery at 90 degrees.

AO Smith GCRX-50L (60K BTU, 98 gallons 1st hr delivery, 61 gph recovery, has 3 and 4 inch venting sizes

AO Smith GCRT-50 (50K BTU, 92 gallons 1st hr delivery, 58 gph recovery)

Bradford White RG250S6N (50K BTU, 93 gallons 1st hr delivery)
Several rheems similar

Any of these should be far superior to our current heater. Looks like it is time to seek out a good installer, go over options and move forward. Is good to have options, from the larger power blower units to perhaps smaller but high recovery units vented directly to atmoshpere!

 

[Dana]

Not to turn this into an HVAC design thread, I did have 3 different competent installers measure things out with heat load and the vice versa. it is a 2 stage system and runs much of the time in the lower stage. When we drop in single digits that changes. Either way our gas bills dropped and the heat has been fine overall. In hindsight the real question may have been why didn't we just do a heat pump though I am not a real fan. We installed a heat pump 2 years later downstairs. We had completely new ducts installed upstairs and the measured leakage was around 1%. We will sell the house before it needs to be replaced.

As far as payback I am not that concerned. We have remodelled both bathrooms, the half bath and the kitchen. I knew going in we will not make a profit on those costs but also realized the remodel was for us to enjoy. The home no doubt will sell easier due to the remodels but most of what we did was for us (we did avoid excessive customization so we would not drive buyers away). But payback does apply here when making choices and i agree that paying $1000 more for the "better" water heater is most likely overkill. I like the idea of having near endless hot water and the nicer water heaters certainly recover faster. But I do sense a 75 gallon 76K BTU water heater is probably our most cost effective solution.

The number of times an INSTALLER accurately measures or calculates the heat load (unfortunately) less than 5% of the time. That's in part due to how much time it takes to do an accurate & aggressive Manual-J, but also an inherent bias toward the high side. P.E.s and RESNET raters or other third-party energy nerds are much more likely to get it right. You are in a position to run the fuel use against heating degree-days numbers to get a handle on just how accurate (or not) they were, if you're curious. The ideal would be if the lower stage just barely covered the load at the 99% outside design temp, which would give you enough at high-fire to cover the all-time record low temperature.

Of course an oversized furnace will run most of the time in it's lower stage, since it's delivering so much heat that it never times out to step up to the high fire, satisfying the thermostat in much shorter time. The greater the oversizing factor, the more likely that is. Most 2-stagers are set up with a time-out (sometimes programmable by the user, usually not), so that if the thermostat isn't satisfied within the time-out period it steps up to high fire. One of my co-workers lives in a townhouse with a heat load less than 15,000 BTU/hr @ +8F (his local 99% temperature bin), that came with an 80KBTU 2-stager. The only times his would ever hit high-fire was when recovering from deep setback. He eventually hard-wired it to run at the ~50K lower stage (still ~4x oversized) just to avoid the hotter-blast finish from setback recovery. (They like it pretty cold for sleeping, setting back to 58F or something.)

The duty-cycle on the thing is still very low. He clearly doesn't NEED the high-fire stage AT ALL, even when it's -10F outside (which happens, if rarely) , even though it would kick on if the recovery time from setback was longer than ~10 minutes or so. He has enough burner to cover the load at -130F outside even at low-fire. If the 70,000 BTU/hr Bryant is only serving the upstairs of an average sized house, you're probably in the same boat that he is. Yes, it heats the house fine, yes it's more comfortable & efficient than a 100K /80% efficiency furnace, but size-wise it's still a bit silly.

Only 1% duct leakage is an insanely good number, very hard to hit. If that's where it came in, consider yourself extremely lucky!

 

[Jdavis37]

The number of times an INSTALLER accurately measures or calculates the heat load (unfortunately) less than 5% of the time. That's in part due to how much time it takes to do an accurate & aggressive Manual-J, but also an inherent bias toward the high side. P.E.s and RESNET raters or other third-party energy nerds are much more likely to get it right. You are in a position to run the fuel use against heating degree-days numbers to get a handle on just how accurate (or not) they were, if you're curious. The ideal would be if the lower stage just barely covered the load at the 99% outside design temp, which would give you enough at high-fire to cover the all-time record low temperature.

Of course an oversized furnace will run most of the time in it's lower stage, since it's delivering so much heat that it never times out to step up to the high fire, satisfying the thermostat in much shorter time. The greater the oversizing factor, the more likely that is. Most 2-stagers are set up with a time-out (sometimes programmable by the user, usually not), so that if the thermostat isn't satisfied within the time-out period it steps up to high fire. One of my co-workers lives in a townhouse with a heat load less than 15,000 BTU/hr @ +8F (his local 99% temperature bin), that came with an 80KBTU 2-stager. The only times his would ever hit high-fire was when recovering from deep setback. He eventually hard-wired it to run at the ~50K lower stage (still ~4x oversized) just to avoid the hotter-blast finish from setback recovery. (They like it pretty cold for sleeping, setting back to 58F or something.)

The duty-cycle on the thing is still very low. He clearly doesn't NEED the high-fire stage AT ALL, even when it's -10F outside (which happens, if rarely) , even though it would kick on if the recovery time from setback was longer than ~10 minutes or so. He has enough burner to cover the load at -130F outside even at low-fire. If the 70,000 BTU/hr Bryant is only serving the upstairs of an average sized house, you're probably in the same boat that he is. Yes, it heats the house fine, yes it's more comfortable & efficient than a 100K /80% efficiency furnace, but size-wise it's still a bit silly.

Only 1% duct leakage is an insanely good number, very hard to hit. If that's where it came in, consider yourself extremely lucky!

I had a difficult time finding installers who would take the time to measure heat loads per room, etc. I only found 2 who did and only one who did the full calculations. I did dig into my paperwork and discovered I lied a bit. The measured leak rate came out at 1.6% when things were finished. We had 22+ % with the old system so I was paying a lot to air condition my attic. They installed all new ductwork, new plenum and enough mastic to cover the state. I don't have all the details behind why we chose this particular gas furnace. It was the lowest end Evolution furnace they had which may have played into things (there were sizeable rebates at the time being offered on the Evolution systems). But it has been several years now.

The company who installed our system was just 2 guys who seemed to want to do things correctly (including the home leakage tests). They were ultimately bought out by another company who sadly were not that great. But I had several quotes at the time from people who swore my existing ductwork was fine, etc etc. They did eyeball sizing. But the bottom line is it is hard to compete against that type of service. Do things right and it costs more, and for many people the bottom line dollar counts for most.

Our upstairs system knock on wood has worked flawlessly. Never an issue. The downstairs heat pump system we bought after the upstairs has had some chronic issues. Random luck or bad design, hard to tell. Ironically though my wife keeps our thermostat around 60 degrees so I finally had to redamper things to give me a little heat in my man cave. I like sleeping in a cool room but dislike freezing all the time!

I am quickly discovering water heater installations are similar things. I contacted a place today who quickly jumped from either replace my b vent or install a tankless. I do agree with a tank I am better off with either a larger tank (good 75 gallon water heater) or a higher efficiency 50 gallon tank with fast recovery. I'll need someone to look at my b vent and confirm whether or not my rough calculations are correct but I MAY be able to eek out 60K BTU and should easily handle 50K btu. I believe the latter even will work, perhaps with less margin. We dont take endless showers nor do we take a shower while running bathwater and the dishwasher. Main objective is for me to be able to fill the tub like it was meant to be filled. Turn water on, run until tub is filled. None of this half fill tub wait 35 minutes and finish the fill stuff!