Wall-mounted Toilets

[Cspell]

We have two bathrooms that are back to back both with wall-mounted toilets. One of the toilets is leaking from the wall. I have purchased new felt wax rings for the walls but need to know how the plumbing works inside the wall so I know if one can be repaired at a time while the other toilet remains functional. Can you help me with this?

 

[Geniescience]

need more info.

tell us everything you can about the toilets. Type, manufacturer, how old, etc. it is not enough to say "i have wall hung toilets"

david

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Cass]

Is the toilet flushed so frequently that you don't have enough time to change a ring? Even if it took you 2 hours.

I would have someone to help you do this. It may take you 2 people to fit the toilet to the wall. It will certainly speed things up with 2 people.

 

[Cspell]

They are Kohler 4-bolt pattern 3339 10
k 4509
3-19-1974

 

[Geniescience]

Kohler search, forum search. At http://search.us.kohler.com/?q=4509 i found, for K-4509 and K-4509-T, the Cayuga/Bolton Tank For Model Numbers K-3440 AND K-3475... matches your description.

There are a couple guys signed in here who may know from first-hand experience what to avoid, what to do, etc. I'm not one of them. I do remember reading on another thread about the "right" type of ring for wall-mounted toilets, not the same as for a floor-mount. Search in this here forum, and you will find a few threads that can help. Use wall-hung as a search term.

If you are sure you have the right ring already, you are far ahead of me. If I had these toilets, I would be worried about having the right parts first. Kohler will answer questions too.

Since this toilet is both tank and bowl mounted to the wall, it is very heavy. You have already gotten one comment saying that any two people can remove it, seal the leak and replace it within a couple hours. That makes sense to me. No need to get into how the pipes are laid out behind the rear discharge in the wall. But, it is worth mentioning what you may already know, that if you remove one toilet and then have to use the other one while the first one is off-wall, you should block / tape shut the exposed pipe, since the pipes are designed to be a closed system and that is how they will work as expected, both in terms of holding back sewer gases and allowing sufficient siphoning during a flush. And also preventing any little spill back out the exposed pipe.

david

 

[Cspell]

I replaced the wax ring (felt gasket) and the toilet is still leaking from underneath. Any suggestions or comments on what I may have done wrong???

 

[Norcal1]

More than likely what is going on is that the wall studs that the toilet hanger is installed on have rotted at the bottom where they meet the bottom plate. The weight of the toilet causes the studs to to move and the toilet moves with it. The seal gets squeezed at the bottom and causes a leak which continues to rot the studs/bottom plate and continues to worsen the problem.

I learned this the hard way on a client's job...lost lots of time and money. I didn't charge them for my time, only materials, and washed my hands of the project. (They have since hired me to do several other jobs.) In the meantime they had another plumber try to fix the leak, which failed.

In my opinion, the only solution is to open the walls and replace the rotten studs/bottom plate.

 

[hj]

?

Norcal;
Bad reply. A properly installed wall hung toilet is supported ENTIRELY by the carrier. It could be in the middle of a room with no walls and would be as secure as one on a wall. Even if the carrier could move, and few can, it would still not leak. But we do not know if this one is, or was, installed properly. I would not use a wax ring, even with the felt insert. I would find a supply store that had the neoprene foam rubber rings, especially if the drain nipple does not project out of the wall at least a 1/4".

 

[Norcal1]

Norcal;
Bad reply. A properly installed wall hung toilet is supported ENTIRELY by the carrier. It could be in the middle of a room with no walls and would be as secure as one on a wall. Even if the carrier could move, and few can, it would still not leak. But we do not know if this one is, or was, installed properly. I would not use a wax ring, even with the felt insert. I would find a supply store that had the neoprene foam rubber rings, especially if the drain nipple does not project out of the wall at least a 1/4".

How is sharing an experience a bad reply?

Yes, the toilet is supported by the "carrier" but the carrier is supported by the wall studs!

If you can "lean" on the toilet and see the bottom of the wall move or see the toilet "push" into the drywall...Houston we have a problem. Using a foam gasket will not solve the real problem. It will only put a band-aid on the problem.

And, you are wrong about the toilet not being able to leak if the "carrier" moves.

I love to go to jobs where a know-it-alls like you has told a client that something isn't possible, only for me to prove to them that it is...I get a very loyal customer.

 

[Markts30]

All the carriers we use bolt directly to the floor/slab and none of the stresses are placed on any part of the walls or framing...
With these you could remove all the framing and have the carrier and toilet sitting in the middle of the room and it would be just as solid as with the wall up...
I have never seen a carrier which rests on the framing/studs...
What model carrier does this?

 

[Norcal1]

All the carriers we use bolt directly to the floor/slab and none of the stresses are placed on any part of the walls or framing...
With these you could remove all the framing and have the carrier and toilet sitting in the middle of the room and it would be just as solid as with the wall up...
I have never seen a carrier which rests on the framing/studs...
What model carrier does this?

I don't know what model this is. What I know is that this bathroom is on the second floor of a home and the carrier is attached to the studs...isn't it great when you learn something new.

 

[Geniescience]

both right, but the wall strength guy really is

At http://search.us.kohler.com/?q=4509 i found, for K-4509 and K-4509-T, the Cayuga/Bolton Tank For Model Numbers K-3440 AND K-3475... I have seen these but never looked behind.

My wall-hung toilets are Euro style on Geberit carriers, not like these. I think there is rubbery ring. Maybe neoprene. For sure there is no wax. (For other kinds of wall-mounts, I have read about the difference in rings, here.)

My Geberit carriers are bolted to the floor. They could support a toilet all alone, for a little while, but not for years. They need a wall or another carrier behind them (back-to-back) to bolt onto. Ask Geberit. Geberit insists on 6" wood studs on both sides, and bolts. Or better. No cheap and flimsy metal studs; they'd have to be reinforced.

I know because i pestered their tech support people for a long time when I needed to get to the bottom of this issue. I was arguing over the strength and adequacy of the construction that I saw happening, before I had to take over. (Chuck C is the boss of Tech Support at Geberit and Chicago Faucet, say hi for me. All his team is consistently good.) I would have had bowing drywall if I had let the former guy continue. And worse.

The problem with wall-hung toilets is that plumbers and builders have to communicate differently -- about different things. What needs doing and who is in charge and responsible and liable. Imagine a plumber telling a builder how strong the wall has to be. "Never heard of such nonsense."

But maybe none of this applies to other types of wall-mount carriers.

david

 

[hj]

carrier

Residential carriers mount to the studs, but that has nothing to do with whether the toilet leaks or not. The toilet is supported by the backing nuts and washers on three of the bolts, and once it is installed the toilet and carrier become a single unit. They move as ONE PIECE, so whether the bottom pushes into the wall or not, that is a carrier structural problem, but the toilet WILL NOT leak because of it. Thank you for bowing to my expertise. I have been installing, and repairing bad installations of, wall hung toilets for decades.

 

[Norcal1]

Residential carriers mount to the studs, but that has nothing to do with whether the toilet leaks or not. The toilet is supported by the backing nuts and washers on three of the bolts, and once it is installed the toilet and carrier become a single unit. They move as ONE PIECE, so whether the bottom pushes into the wall or not, that is a carrier structural problem, but the toilet WILL NOT leak because of it. Thank you for bowing to my expertise. I have been installing, and repairing bad installations of, wall hung toilets for decades.

HJ, why can't you admit that you are wrong...are you even following your own logic????? You say that residential carriers mount to the studs. So if the studs rot out at the bottom, thereby separating from the bottom plate, and then when a 200 pound man sits on the wall mount toilet, what do you think is going to happen???

What happens is that the bottom of the wall moves inwardly and since the drain/seal is stationary, the bottom of the seal gets pinched, which causes the leak. (See close up view of wall mount picture) It's really a very simple concept...not sure why you are fighting it.

 

[Cass]

If the carrier had only 2 bolts, 1 on either side I might agree with you but with 4 everything will stay sandwiched and the carrier will just move with the wall. If you bolted the carrier, studs, and drywall to the toilet and had movable water lines and drain, the toilet could be hung on a swing and it wouldn't leak. Rotted studs have no bearing on a leak just as solid studs have no bearing on the leak. The studs keep the whole thing (carrier and toilet assembly)from moving.

 

[SRdenny]

Go to a plumbing wholesaler and ask for a JR Smith Neoprene Outlet Gasket, part no. 0100GASKET-NEOP. Get two of them. They may need to order them from the local rep. Use instead of wax ring.
Carrier is mounted to floor and or wall.
Closet is mounted to carrier.
If carrier is not secure, closet will not be either.

 

[Norcal1]

If the carrier had only 2 bolts, 1 on either side I might agree with you but with 4 everything will stay sandwiched and the carrier will just move with the wall. If you bolted the carrier, studs, and drywall to the toilet and had movable water lines and drain, the toilet could be hung on a swing and it wouldn't leak. Rotted studs have no bearing on a leak just as solid studs have no bearing on the leak. The studs keep the whole thing (carrier and toilet assembly)from moving.

Yes, the carrier does move with the wall, hence, the problem. The drain is NOT MOVABLE in this particular situation.

Why are you people fighting my first hand experience. I don't claim to be an expert in wall mount toilets, I'm just telling you what happened on this particular job. It is what it is...don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

Looking at the picture, you tell me how the bottom of the seal gets pinched if the wall is not moving at the bottom. BTW, see the dented drywall from the bottom of the toilet. That was caused because the drywall was held in place by the bottom plate, so was immovable.



Here's a comparable example that might help you guys understand the problem...I run into this quite often in the area that I work:

Symptom: Floor mount toilet is rocking on cast iron toilet flange.

Cause: Over time, the house has settled/dropped. However the cast iron drain line did not settle/drop, which causes the toilet flange the stick up past the floor, thereby causing the toilet to rock.

This is essentially the same scenario as the wall mount toilet problem that I am trying to share with you...hope that helps...gotta run, my son is in for a visit.