wwhitney
In the Trades
Does PERT expansion generally use PEX rings? I'm assuming the PEX expansion rings are in fact made of PEX.
Cheers, Wayne
Uponer Pex-A for Repipe
- Thread starter Rwbil
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Cheers, Wayne
While I don't have definitive information to share, I learned that Jones Stephens products are manufactured in Spain. I'm unsure whether this is advantageous or not.
I am determined to use expansion fittings and prefer the convenience of being able to pick up necessary fittings locally, rather than having to special order them. Based on this criterion, the options available in my area appear to be Uponer and Jones Stephens.
Regarding Sioux Chief or other PEX-A options, I am unsure about their comparative quality or how to gather reliable information on the matter. Previously, when I transitioned away from CPVC, I was informed that Uponer was the top choice. However, I am now considering the possibility that all PEX-A pipes may have issues, with Uponer being the most prominent manufacturer and consequently facing legal actions.
The flexibility of PEX-A is particularly appealing to me, as I believe that fitting connections are a potential source of problems. Therefore, minimizing the number of fittings seems beneficial. Ideally, I would like to proceed with Jones Stephens PEX-A pipe and their corresponding fittings. However, if Zurn PEX-B truly has a lifespan of 25 years in the US public water system, I may prefer to opt for that with Uponer fittings.
In any case, I feel like a guinea pig, uncertain of the outcome, and concerned about potential failures and lawsuits that may surface in the next couple of years. It's causing me to reconsider using CPVC once again.
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I think all PEX regardless of who makes it has a lifespan greater than 50 years as long as there's no manufacturing screw up and no ridiculous water chemistry involved.
I wouldn't use CPVC if it was free. If my choices were CPVC or copper, I'd go with copper regardless of cost. I'd also add a water treatment to my system if I was using copper to make sure the pH was good and there wasn't too much chloride or chloramine in the water, but at least copper doesn't get brittle and snap off after 10 years.
While things made in China aren't *necessarily* bad (they'll make what you ask for), the main motivation for making things in China is cost. I don't know of any cost advantage of having something made in Spain for import, so my guess is that Ferguson or Jones Stevens chose a Spanish made pipe for reasons other than cost (quality is my guess).
I think Sioux Chief, Rehau, Everflow, and Legend (PE-RT) are all stand up companies.
Regarding the A issues and Uponor, I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with PEX A except for Uponor, and yes, your point about Uponor having a big market share of A is important. Also, it seems that all the Uponor failures we hear about are on installations much less than 10 years old, and since Uponor has been selling A in big quantities for over 20 years and we're not hearing about *old* Uponor hitting an age wall and failing, I think the problem with A is confined to Uponor and confined to their pipe about 5 years old. In other words, a manufacturing screw-up either at Uponor or their resin supplier.
Those of course are only my opinions based on information that I have seen.
John
My understanding is that you use PEX expansion rings to bolster the connection over the PE-RT pipe.
John
Jeff H Young
In the Trades
Thousands of homes being plumbed in pex while you decide I think CPVC would be good if it was desighned differant but copper tube size is kind of a joke it is smaller id but there isnt enouygh meat .
Type L copper if you have the dough.
I looked up a bit on PERT, last night but mostly useless propaganda about it 100 yr warranty and its recylable not the stuff I care about is the stuff any good ? I guess Id say I found it interesting but I didnt delve too deep. I havent heard a lot about it sounds like John Gayewski used it and not sounding overly impressed.
I know you guys are nervous about Pex A but sounds still to be highly regarded a few bad expeiances and bad news travels faster than good . no one cares when we say "hey my house did not leak yesterday" but one guy has a leak and every damn free loading lawyer is on the money chase.
BTW , I see zurn had some investigation to PLASTIC fitting failure and whoever did investigation closed it with no findings of a problem. The metal fitting (dezincafacation) class action was settled and gues what ZURN never admitted anything what the problem was etc. they paid money and admited nothing (is what I read) . So those wanting explanation from Uponor keep waiting.
Type L copper if you have the dough.
I looked up a bit on PERT, last night but mostly useless propaganda about it 100 yr warranty and its recylable not the stuff I care about is the stuff any good ? I guess Id say I found it interesting but I didnt delve too deep. I havent heard a lot about it sounds like John Gayewski used it and not sounding overly impressed.
I know you guys are nervous about Pex A but sounds still to be highly regarded a few bad expeiances and bad news travels faster than good . no one cares when we say "hey my house did not leak yesterday" but one guy has a leak and every damn free loading lawyer is on the money chase.
BTW , I see zurn had some investigation to PLASTIC fitting failure and whoever did investigation closed it with no findings of a problem. The metal fitting (dezincafacation) class action was settled and gues what ZURN never admitted anything what the problem was etc. they paid money and admited nothing (is what I read) . So those wanting explanation from Uponor keep waiting.
Bad news does travel fast. If I made 10 million widgets and just 500 of them had a problem, 250 of those people would be on the web screaming. It would seem like an avalanche of problems.
My issue with disclosure isn't from where or from whom it comes, but if it comes at all. It really doesn't matter to me if Zurn admitted anything as the engineering analysis of the failed brass showed dezincification of the alloy caused the corrosion failure. The problem was identified and was repaired. I also read that particular alloy was selected because it had no lead in it, so the no-lead brass was something new, but I digress.
Getting back to the Uponor A, I just wish I an answer. As far as I know, there hasn't been any independent analysis of the failed pipe like there was with the no lead brass. I get why Uponor won't say anything, but it doesn't make me feel better understanding why they won't. If I knew that it was some sort of issue that was first identified and then resolved, my fears would be completely allayed even if I never find out what the issue was (I'm not a chemist so I doubt I'd understand anyway). Not knowing bothers me because if nobody outside Uponor knows, maybe Uponor doesn't know either, and that's what scares me. All I know is that there have been some failures in PEX pipe in 5 years that should have lasted 50-75.
John
John Gayewski
In the Trades
Yes. If I were using PERT I would use uponor pex rings or better yet the soiux chief rings are manufactured a little better.
Jeff H Young
In the Trades
So far Ive never heard any water pipe that "lasts 50 or 75 years" no pipe allways lasts 75 years (That is affordable ) although we all have seen brass, copper, and galvinized and others last incredibly long . much longer than 50 or 75 years many have failure befor reaching that age and are repaired
None of us like the unknowns of failures . Like I said though Zurn didnt admit but you John ct want Upponor to admit to fault or cause or even the existance of failures or problems (I would too) but the whores that are out there trying to get rich off a lawsuit cast doubt to thier side of things as well.
BTW, Uponor claims 12 billion feet of pex manufactured it does have some sucess story out there. I cant tell you how many horror stories on copper are out there and I still stand by copper
None of us like the unknowns of failures . Like I said though Zurn didnt admit but you John ct want Upponor to admit to fault or cause or even the existance of failures or problems (I would too) but the whores that are out there trying to get rich off a lawsuit cast doubt to thier side of things as well.
BTW, Uponor claims 12 billion feet of pex manufactured it does have some sucess story out there. I cant tell you how many horror stories on copper are out there and I still stand by copper
I'm not sure you are understanding my exact position Jeff. I don't need to hear Uponor issue a mea culpa, and God knows what I think of ambulance chasers, but my point is simply that because *no one* to this point has explained publicly why 5 year old Uponor is doing splits like a college cheerleader during a bowl game, I can't know if the problem was fixed or even understood. Without knowing if anyone (including Uponor) understands what happened, it makes me nervous, and because I have the option of using something else, I do.
So to make me happy, all I need to know is that *whatever* happened to that Uponor pipe, *something* was done to fix it. I don't need to hear anyone to admit it and I don't even know what it was that caused the issue. I just need to know it was fixed. Like the brass fittings that failed - we know now that the low-lead alloy of brass was the problem and that it's fixed. Because I know the problem was identified and fixed, I'll use current production brass fittings again.
Until someone can say the problem was identified and fixed, I don't know that it was which is my point. I won't use Uponor again until I know I can trust it.
John
Jeff H Young
In the Trades
I get it john , but many people might not just blindly belive Someone any one saying its all fixed problem solved or if it was only product from a certain batch I could imagine many would still say they didnt belive it
Update - July 17, 2023
I wanted to provide you with an update on my progress. Unfortunately, I am still facing challenges in determining which piping to use for my project. While Sioux Chief seems like a promising option, I have discovered that none of the local suppliers near me carry their complete range of parts. Even the online sources I found were unable to provide all the necessary components.
However, I came across some interesting information regarding Uponor. It appears that Uponor has reintroduced their red and blue piping, which was previously discontinued due to lawsuits. To gather more information, I contacted Uponor directly. Surprisingly, they informed me that the pipes were not available due to a lack of availability of a particular type of lacquer used in their production. It contradicts what I found online, where it was stated that the discontinuation was a result of the lawsuits. Whenever I raised the topic of lawsuits, the representative from Uponor simply dismissed them as allegations and assured me that their pipes have no issues. They refused to acknowledge any responsibility or admit to any problems associated with their piping. I felt like I was talking to the tobacco companies, "Addictive that is just an allegation"!
However, the Uponor representative did mention that the piping could encounter issues in a recirculation system operating at temperatures exceeding 140 degrees Fahrenheit and with a velocity greater than 2 ft/sec.
Considering the conflicting information, it has become challenging to determine whom to believe.
So far, the only option I have found that carries all the required supplies is Chinese-made Apollo from Home Depot.
I will continue my research and exploration of available options. If you have any insights or recommendations, please feel free to share them with me.
I wanted to provide you with an update on my progress. Unfortunately, I am still facing challenges in determining which piping to use for my project. While Sioux Chief seems like a promising option, I have discovered that none of the local suppliers near me carry their complete range of parts. Even the online sources I found were unable to provide all the necessary components.
However, I came across some interesting information regarding Uponor. It appears that Uponor has reintroduced their red and blue piping, which was previously discontinued due to lawsuits. To gather more information, I contacted Uponor directly. Surprisingly, they informed me that the pipes were not available due to a lack of availability of a particular type of lacquer used in their production. It contradicts what I found online, where it was stated that the discontinuation was a result of the lawsuits. Whenever I raised the topic of lawsuits, the representative from Uponor simply dismissed them as allegations and assured me that their pipes have no issues. They refused to acknowledge any responsibility or admit to any problems associated with their piping. I felt like I was talking to the tobacco companies, "Addictive that is just an allegation"!
However, the Uponor representative did mention that the piping could encounter issues in a recirculation system operating at temperatures exceeding 140 degrees Fahrenheit and with a velocity greater than 2 ft/sec.
Considering the conflicting information, it has become challenging to determine whom to believe.
So far, the only option I have found that carries all the required supplies is Chinese-made Apollo from Home Depot.
I will continue my research and exploration of available options. If you have any insights or recommendations, please feel free to share them with me.
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I'll repeat what I've said several times before - I *understand* why Uponor won't admit anything at this point - I wouldn't either. That doesn't make me feel better though..
Maybe the problem is batch related that affected some (few) runs about 5 years ago and they figure those few batches will tinkle, get fixed, and Uponor will pay for the ones that fail - much better than full disclosure and eventually the problem goes away. Again, if I knew that Uponor figured out the problem and fixed it even if they never publicly said what the problem was, I would use Uponor again, but they can't admit even that so here we are. Maybe they don't know why their pipe sometimes fails and sometimes doesn't. That scares me.
Interesting on the reintroduction of red and blue pipe. The blue pic on Uponor's site seems to be solid color where the old colored pipe was externally applied. Maybe it's just the pic and not accurate.
I think Uponor's fittings are top notch however, so if you go with another pipe to expand, I wouldn't be afraid of using Uponor fittings of either the polysulfone or brass.
John
Another Update
To my surprise, I found I have yet another option. I knew Home Depot Carried Chinese Made Apollo Pex-A, but last time I checked Lowes only carried Pex-B. But I was at Lowes so I checked and they now carry Shark Bite Pex-A and it looked like most of the fitting I would need. I did not even know Shark Bite made Pex-A piping and fitting.
I checked on the internet and it says Shark Bite Pex tubing is made in Alabama.
Anyone use Shark Bite Pex-A or know if it is any good? There are Lowes everyone and they are open on the weekend, so that makes it a nice option.
To my surprise, I found I have yet another option. I knew Home Depot Carried Chinese Made Apollo Pex-A, but last time I checked Lowes only carried Pex-B. But I was at Lowes so I checked and they now carry Shark Bite Pex-A and it looked like most of the fitting I would need. I did not even know Shark Bite made Pex-A piping and fitting.
I checked on the internet and it says Shark Bite Pex tubing is made in Alabama.
Anyone use Shark Bite Pex-A or know if it is any good? There are Lowes everyone and they are open on the weekend, so that makes it a nice option.
Jeff H Young
In the Trades
I thought Rwbil might want to use one company for , pipe and fittings so no conflict with using unauthorized parts comes up on a future warranty. Personally I think Uponor has figured out the problem no matter how big or small and corrected it after all they did stop making that old colored pipe if I understand correctly.
I can understand hesitance with deciding which products to use
I can understand hesitance with deciding which products to use
Good point on the warranty.
Regarding the color pipe, for a time I was sure that the Uponor coloring process (additive which required head and radiation) was the source of the Uponor problem, but there are instances on the web and even on this forum where the white pipe has also yellowed, cracked, and failed. There are even cases where uninstalled Uponor white is yellowing even with no water running through it.
John
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Update 7/29/23
Well I went with Uponer and hope and preying it was just a bad patch of piping. But honestly, I am starting to wish I went with SharkBite. One of the reasons I went with Uponer was I was thinking everything would be in stock so I could just head to Ferguson or WinSupply and pick it up. But that is not the case. Many adapters such as ProPex to Copper Sweat, Q5517575, are not in stock. But you know who does have them in stock SharkBite at Lowes. In fact the only thing I see that Sharkbite is weak in is the manifolds. But no one I have talked to has used SharkBite Pex-A material and I did not want to be the guinea pig.
Well I went with Uponer and hope and preying it was just a bad patch of piping. But honestly, I am starting to wish I went with SharkBite. One of the reasons I went with Uponer was I was thinking everything would be in stock so I could just head to Ferguson or WinSupply and pick it up. But that is not the case. Many adapters such as ProPex to Copper Sweat, Q5517575, are not in stock. But you know who does have them in stock SharkBite at Lowes. In fact the only thing I see that Sharkbite is weak in is the manifolds. But no one I have talked to has used SharkBite Pex-A material and I did not want to be the guinea pig.
Despite my repeated concerns with Uponor, odds are you'll be fine. I also have a remodel job on the back burner and haven't eliminated Uponor yet (particularly if I get wind of a bad batch in which the prob was corrected). Just keep an eye on the pipe that remains exposed for sampling reasons. If you see any sign of yellowing (assuming you went white), then worry. Otherwise the millions of feet of Uponor that hasn't failed says you should be good.
John
Jeff H Young
In the Trades
As concerned as everyone is I think Uponor had to have done something to adress problem but you never really know . and anyone of these other companies could have problems too
John Gayewski
In the Trades
Yellowing doesn't mean it's bad. We have iron in our water which turns uponor yellow over time, also coming from a water heater the rust will turn uponor yellow. Don't worry about yellow pex a either. Worry if it leaks or cracks.
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