Triangle Tube Prestige Boiler Problems, Solutions & Question

Discussion in 'Boiler Forum' started by larryleveen, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. boulderbri

    boulderbri New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Granby, CO
    Hi - I have a TT Prestige Solo 110 with the TT Phase 3 Indirect Fired Water Heater. I live in Granby, Colorado at around 8600 feet altitude. The night temps get down to around 0*.

    I've been trying to figure out why we aren't getting the same heat as before (a little chilly in the morning). By early day, things have caught up. Settings are all factory default except for the CH Target Temp is 170* instead of the 186* and the pressure is 12 PSI, which is recommended in the manual for residential.

    In the morning, when several zones are requesting heat, the measured supply temp never goes above 125*. I guess I expected it to be much higher since the CH Target Temp is 170*. Is this right or does it sound like there is a problem

    There are no error codes or lockout. The only issue I see is that the domestic water temp sensor from the side arm water heater shows -22 but if I turn the hot water on in the house and the TT heats the water heater, the domestic water temp sensor shows 240 (which the manual shows as a short).

    So, in short, things seem to work fine for the most part except in the morning, the house is at 65* when all the zones are set for 69*. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

    Thanks!
    Brian
  2. BadgerBoilerMN

    BadgerBoilerMN Master Hot Water Mpls,MN

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    A common complaint from people with an over-sized condensing boiler. Who performed the Manual 'J' heat load?
  3. Buffalobillpatrick

    Buffalobillpatrick New Member

    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Stonewall Colorado
    Boulderbri,
    What does your "before" mean?

    In morning, step mode from standby to info, 1st display is boiler output (supply) temp.
    Step to 2nd, which is boiler return temp.
    If they are close to the same temp. then your heat emitters are undersized,
    adjust your 4 ODR parameters, as Dana suggests, you need installation manual
    & set the MCB access code 1st.
    if they are wide apart, then your boiler is undersized and can't keep up with your load.
    If it can't keep up, about all you can do is maximize your target temp. parameter OR pump with higher head.

    Add insulation, storm windows, air seal, etc.

    BTW, your indirect works fine? There is parameter for DHW sensor type or some such.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  4. boulderbri

    boulderbri New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Granby, CO
    Thanks for the response. I say "before" because I don't recall this problem happening the first year or two after the TT was installed. But, I also started seeing this after adjusting the CH Target Temp to lower over the summer. I put it back up to the default 186* and I haven't seen the problem since.

    What would be considered wide for determining undersized or oversized? I just looked and it is a ~20* difference this morning.

    I do think I need to look at the DHW sensor. I'll check out the installation manual on the DHW sensor type. Thanks for the help!
  5. 247 Fix Mechanical Corp.

    247 Fix Mechanical Corp. New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    BC
    I have just got my hands dirty with this delayed ignition problem with a prestige solo 250. Triangle tube's fan during ignition starts off at around 50% and apparently the "thud" or "boom" you are hearing is normal... So says everyone at triangle tube. My experience is mostly with other boiler brands. With the high efficiency boilers I typically install all you can hear if anything during ignition is a very low blowing noise from the blower. You don't actually hear them igniter with a thud or boom. Going over the unit with my combustion analyzer I found the original contractor had set the unit to run too rich. The O level was only 3.2 and the CO was well over 100 (130) and well out of spec. They also installed a 20' length of 1" gaslight after the reg (done so at the recommendation of Triangle tube head office support techs) to act as a buffer? We were getting a pretty serious pressure drop of over 4" between not running and running at 100%. The drop shouldn't be more then around 1". It was so bad the unit at high fire was dropping below the min of 5" to 4.9" from 9" standing. I replaced the gas regulator to a green cap specifically designed to work with high efficiency appliances and re-piped the unit with only a couple of feet of gas pipe which helped to reduce the drop to 2". Still not what I would like to see but a huge improvement. After all this I replaced the ignitor and control board at the recommendation of Triangle tube's support line. The thought was the board was not providing enough voltage to generate a hot enough spark. This didn't solve the problem of the "thud / boom" either. I adjusted my O level to 4% which is right on the money and my CO level came down to 80 which is great. The "thud" is now much less then it was when I first came to site, but in my humble opinion still unacceptable. I feel the best solution to this delayed ignition problem would be to lower the fan's rate during ignition to 20-30% but it is impossible with Triangle tube boilers software to adjust this setting. So in other words, not a unit I would recommend unless you are installing it in a bunker where noise is not an issue and a must would be to get the extended warranty. That being said, TT boilers are rated by others as a high end boiler so perhaps I am missing something. I would only recommend a Locinvar / Knight boiler as they seem to have a much better product.
  6. BadgerBoilerMN

    BadgerBoilerMN Master Hot Water Mpls,MN

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Perhaps an experienced Triangle Tube technician could help? We set most up on pressure and verify with a calibrated analyser in the hands of a trained technician. You describe a delayed ignition and it can be corrected. We have found some condensing boiler more reliable than others at high altitude and propane.

    We tell our clients if they have a hard lock-out they should record the error code, if there is one, and send us an email.

    I know you can find a competent technician and the cost of a factory setup (most important item after sizing) can't be as much as a quality combustion analyser.

    Automated reset is creative, but not very smart. This in effect, bypasses a safety circuit. Bad things can happen and often do.
  7. boilerdonganhhn

    boilerdonganhhn New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Ha noi
    Boiler or Boilers. How they work
    boiler


    [​IMG]
    Objective: The objective of this presentation is to give you guys a fundamental understanding of how boilers can benefit our homes.
    Boilers provide warm, even heat throughout your home by circulating steam or heated water through a system of pipes and baseboard or radiator-type heat exchangers.


    How they work

    Basically, heat is created by burning gas or oil inside your furnace. Hot gases that are created pass through curved metal tubing called a heat exchanger and then out of your home through a metal or plastic vent pipe. At the same time, the air that circulates through your home passes over the outside of the heat exchanger and takes on the heat from the hot metal. The warm air is then circulated through your home
    They provide warm, even comfort without drafts because it's not a forced air system. Instead, warmth "radiates" throughout your home without causing much of the dryness associated with heat from a forced-air system, such as furnace or heat pump


    Types

    There are two types of boilers: gas and oil boilers and they can run on hot water or steam.
    The piping systems are different for each type.
    The hot water system boiler uses a pump to circulate the hot water while the steam boiler uses its own pressure to circulate the steam throughout the system. Both use a burner to heat the water to the temperature that is set on the thermostat. An aqua stat monitors the temperature of the water and turns the burner off when the temperature reaches the desired level. Steam boilers must heat the water to a higher temperature, and therefore have lower efficiencies than hot water boilers
    Combination boilers combine water heating and heat generation in one unit and can save considerable money on heating and water heating costs. The heating part of the "combi" boiler works in the same fashion as other boilers.


    Efficiency

    The efficiency of new boilers is measured by the Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency (AFUE). This is a measure of overall performance. The federal minimum-efficiency standards for boilers took effect in 1992, requiring that new boiler units have an AFUE of at least 80%.
    There are three key terms associated with efficiency of a boiler:
    Combustion efficiency - how efficiently the boiler burns the fuel.
    Steady-state efficiency - how efficiently the boiler uses the heat from combustion when operating under full load.
    Seasonal efficiency - how efficiently the boiler uses fuel over the entire heating season
    Although all three are important, it is the seasonal efficiency that is most important since it determines how much the building owner will pay for fuel over the course of the heating season
    High seasonal efficiency requires good steady-state efficiency as well as good combustion efficiency.
    There are a few things that can increase efficiency
    First, using two or three boilers can greatly increase efficiency.
    The longer a boiler operates, the higher the seasonal efficiency. Therefore, a boiler that is smaller than required will more closely match the heating load of the building for a larger part of the season because of fewer on-and-off cycles. When the first boiler can no longer keep up with the heat loss, a second boiler picks up the extra load, and then a third boiler, if necessary
    Each boiler will cycle one-half to one-third less than a single boiler, thus increasing seasonal efficiency significantly
    However, the key to maximizing efficiency with two or three commercial boilers is to be sure that each boiler is completely isolated from the others so that non-operating boilers will not be hot with system water.
    Some other ways to increase efficiency include eliminating leaks, softening or treating system water, using indoor/outdoor reset thermostats, and limiting control differentials.


    Conclusion

    In conclusion, boilers can greatly benefit our homes by providing efficiently warm and comfortable heat evenly throughout our homes.
  8. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    And.............................So what?
  9. mwnitz

    mwnitz New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    New York
    Violent Ignition

    I posted this on another forum already. I'm just trying to get many people to try to think this through...

    "I have a high efficient boiler /domestic hot water heater by Triangle Tube, model: Prestige Excellence 110. It's been an awesome unit, and trouble free for 4 years.

    All of a sudden I was hearing a bang on ignition, kind of like a violent ignition. I opened up the unit and removed the ignitor, the most common item that goes. It was indeed dirty, and the gap had widened, probably from the violent ignition.

    I installed a new ignitor and it ignited like it was brand new. After 2 weeks, I started to hear the delayed violent ignition again. I removed the ignitor and lo and behold it was dirty again. The gap was fine though. I cleaned the ignitor and reinstalled it. It now works like it's brand new again.

    I plan on calling the utility company and having them check for excess moisture in the supply, as well as testing the supply water column pressure. If I can talk the tech into it, I'll have him remove the plug on the gas valve and check my manifold pressure (I don't have working manometer at the moment).

    Am I missing something painfully obvious here? The air intake and the cone inside of it looks good, there is no restriction on the exhaust or intake, no lockout codes displayed on the self diagnostic screen. I pulled off the cap of the gas drip leg and it looks clean as a whistle."

    Second post a month later...

    "More info on my problem. I did find the heat exchanger to be moderately dirty. I found debris that resembles sand inside the combustion chamber. I cleaned it out per the manufacturer's recommendation. I vacuumed the heat exchanger narrow air tubes, and I could see the debris in the shop vac. Then I poured water into the heat exchanger. Some of that sand came out of the condensate drain. I had the feeling that I really nailed it, and the combustion of natural gas must have been inhibited from properly exhausting. I sanded off the electrodes, and lo-and-behold it worked fine.... for 3 weeks.

    After 3 weeks I heard the intermittent violent initial combustion. It does not do it on every ignition. I found the tips of the ignitor to have red residue on them. After I sand off the electrodes and reinstall, it runs fine with no violent ignition.

    I grabbed my combustion analyzer and performed tests 3 times on high fire, and 3 times on low fire. Here are the results:

    High fire:

    Efficiency: 89%, 88.5%, 88%
    O2: 4.5, 4, 3.9
    Temp rise: 50, 70, 75

    Low fire:

    Efficiency: 88, 88, 88
    O2: 4.2, 4.25, 4.25
    Temp rise: 70, 70, 70

    The supply water temperature is well within manufacturer specs of having a clean heat exchanger.

    I had the natural gas supply checked for WC. The house is supplied with over 8 WC, great according to my utility company. I asked them to check for moisture in the gas. The way they check for this is have a gas pipe wide open, and place their hand over the hole in the pipe, then release their hand and listen for gurgling. This souunds like the most un-scientific way to check for moisture, but this is how they say they do it.

    I do not have a working manometer at the moment to check manifold gas pressure, but I have one coming.

    I checked for spark after I cleaned the electrode, and I see a good consistent blue spark at the electrodes.

    My serial number does not fall in that engineering bulletin from TriangleTube for a faulty ignition transformer.

    What could possible be methodically coating the ignitor electrodes with red material that inhibits the spark? What else could be causing a voilent initial ignition? Or is red material on the ignitor perfectly normal?"

    I know it's alot of information. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I find this "thud" to be unacceptable, and never heard it before unitl recently.

    Thanks.

    -Mark
  10. EmmaUtah

    EmmaUtah New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Utah
    Horn like sound

    I have the same boiler and it made sounds like yours. We fixed it. The fix was very simple but is was the right way to go.

    What happened was that clean air and burned air were mixing in the intake air pipe. We noticed that the end of the Prestige Concentric Vent Kit was missing. We put it back in place and the air quality was good again.

    Try taking a look at the vent.

    Good luck





Similar Threads: Triangle Tube
Forum Title Date
Boiler Forum Triangle Tube Prestige Excellence 110 Boiler - Hot Water Gives Up After 10-15 Minutes Dec 1, 2013
Boiler Forum Triangle Tube Challenger 105 DHW problem Nov 12, 2013
Boiler Forum Is a TriangleTube Prestige Trimax Excellence PTE 110 the right one of the job? Aug 7, 2013
Boiler Forum triangle tube excellence review Apr 27, 2013
Boiler Forum triangle tube prestige 110 Oct 17, 2012

Share This Page