superdavet
New Member
This post is from a conversation I initiated with 5 other members. I received good replies with some points to ponder, but thought I would re-post my original post in it's entirety. I would also appreciate any feed back from well owners who are using a stop valve system, how it is working for you, as well as owners of "conventional" well systems and why or why you chose to stick with a "conventional" setup.
Thanks, dave.
Good day. I am weighing a stop valve system vs. a conventional pressure tank and switch. I know this topic has been covered quite extensively over the last few years and I have been following it off and on for the last 2. I am now finally ready to make a decision, but find that there seems to be some missing pieces to the puzzle for me to make as informed a decision as possible. I was all set to go with a stop valve system when an on-line retailer said they did not recommend a stop valve system for residential purposes. So I started delving into the subject even more than before.
There seems to be differing opinions as to the worth of stop valves compared to properly sized pressure tanks.
1) I have heard that stop valve systems are suited for mainly irrigation purposes, and for other higher usage, variable flow requirements, stop valves seem to be a good way to go. But for normal everyday residential applications, I have begun to question the viability of stop valves. I understand that during showers it’s heads and shoulders, (no pun intended), above standard pressure tanks because of the higher and more consistent flow rate, but that isn’t what the main draw is from a well. Typically with a family of 4, there will be say , 4 showers a day, but after that, consumption is mostly on/off, on/off of sinks, toilets, dishwasher etc etc. Given the smaller pressure tank with a stop valve, will the pump not cycle on and off even more often with a stop valve/pressure tank compared to a properly sized tank due to the small pressure tank cycle volume?
here is a post from another forum that I found interesting...(edited for content).
“I'll jump on this one. Cycle stop valves have been around for a very long time now. The concept is nothing new at all and you have to ask yourself why 99% if well and pump installers are not using this so called miracle valve? I'll tell you why. With a cycle stop valve in place any time someone cracks a faucet or runs any small amount of water which is pretty normal in most homes. Like getting a glass of water for instance. With the cycle stop valve the pump will run every time a faucet uses more than about a half a gallon of water. So where is this thing reducing cycle times? How about a full out draw on the system, say a couple of hoses running? Well, with a cycle stop valve the pump runs the entire time the hoses are running. With a standard tank system the pump also runs the entire time the hoses are running. ***********that promote this thing do so because probably 80% of well tank systems are installed using a tank that is too small for the pump which will cause problems with cycling but had the installer properly sized the tank a tank system will outperform a CSV any day of the week. Also try and find a single pump or tank manufacturer that endorses them or is offering them in their product lines.
As mentioned earlier, I edited the above post as it was overly harsh and possibly even slanderous. I kept the remainder as I felt there were some valid points.
2) On the cycle stop valve interactive demo, I believe the demo is misleading. The demo appears to be using the same size pressure tank for both examples. I understand the fact that the csv will do what it is suppose to during extended periods of water use, but most water use during the course of a day is very intermittent.
During the course of an average day’s water use, here is how I see the 2 systems comparing:
4 showers at different times.
csv cycles on and off 3 different times, running for the entire time for each shower.
properly sized tank
perhaps 5 times depending on the length of each shower .
flushing toilet
csv cycles on and off each time a toilet is flushed
properly sized tank
0, depending on fill level of tank and will only cycle once the tank's volume is used up. So for an 80 gallon tank with a 60 gallon capacity, with toilets using 1 1/2 gallons per flush, I could expect close to 30 flushes before a pump cycle occurs.
running sink
potentially, the csv may cycle on and off each time the tap is turned on if the draw is more than the capacity of the smaller pressure tank, (more or less depending on demand)
properly sized tank
0, depending on fill level of tank
dishwasher
csv cycles on then off
properly sized tank
0, depending on fill level of tank
washer
csv cycles on then off approximately 3 different times, (fill + 2 rinse cycles)
properly sized tank
probably at least once, but possibly 0, depending on fill level of tank
Now I understand the fact that I have a lot of “depending on fill level of tank” scenarios, but if your using a properly sized tank, say 82g, (which is what my local guy suggested based on my well stats), then I have approximately 50g to use before my pump kicks in to refill the tank. That 50g will flush a few toilets, do a couple of loads of laundry and dishes without having to start up, where the csv will kick in almost every time.
3) With a CSV system, if I draw a small volume from say a tap and that triggers the pressure switch to start the pump to refill the pressure tank and assuming no draw from the sink or anything else, the pump will run for the time it takes to refill the pressure tank and satisfy the high pressure cutoff. Question is - how fast will the pressure tank take to refill at this minimal refill rate? I don't know what the refilling rate is. Is it based on say 1/2 gallon per minute through a small orifice therefore it might take a minute or 2 to fill up and turn the pump off. If this is the case, the pump could actually cycle more than if using a traditional large tank during small usage draws during the day. Is this correct?
I may be missing something and would be happy if you could fill in whatever blanks are missing in my thinking.
thanks, dave
Thanks, dave.
Good day. I am weighing a stop valve system vs. a conventional pressure tank and switch. I know this topic has been covered quite extensively over the last few years and I have been following it off and on for the last 2. I am now finally ready to make a decision, but find that there seems to be some missing pieces to the puzzle for me to make as informed a decision as possible. I was all set to go with a stop valve system when an on-line retailer said they did not recommend a stop valve system for residential purposes. So I started delving into the subject even more than before.
There seems to be differing opinions as to the worth of stop valves compared to properly sized pressure tanks.
1) I have heard that stop valve systems are suited for mainly irrigation purposes, and for other higher usage, variable flow requirements, stop valves seem to be a good way to go. But for normal everyday residential applications, I have begun to question the viability of stop valves. I understand that during showers it’s heads and shoulders, (no pun intended), above standard pressure tanks because of the higher and more consistent flow rate, but that isn’t what the main draw is from a well. Typically with a family of 4, there will be say , 4 showers a day, but after that, consumption is mostly on/off, on/off of sinks, toilets, dishwasher etc etc. Given the smaller pressure tank with a stop valve, will the pump not cycle on and off even more often with a stop valve/pressure tank compared to a properly sized tank due to the small pressure tank cycle volume?
here is a post from another forum that I found interesting...(edited for content).
“I'll jump on this one. Cycle stop valves have been around for a very long time now. The concept is nothing new at all and you have to ask yourself why 99% if well and pump installers are not using this so called miracle valve? I'll tell you why. With a cycle stop valve in place any time someone cracks a faucet or runs any small amount of water which is pretty normal in most homes. Like getting a glass of water for instance. With the cycle stop valve the pump will run every time a faucet uses more than about a half a gallon of water. So where is this thing reducing cycle times? How about a full out draw on the system, say a couple of hoses running? Well, with a cycle stop valve the pump runs the entire time the hoses are running. With a standard tank system the pump also runs the entire time the hoses are running. ***********that promote this thing do so because probably 80% of well tank systems are installed using a tank that is too small for the pump which will cause problems with cycling but had the installer properly sized the tank a tank system will outperform a CSV any day of the week. Also try and find a single pump or tank manufacturer that endorses them or is offering them in their product lines.
As mentioned earlier, I edited the above post as it was overly harsh and possibly even slanderous. I kept the remainder as I felt there were some valid points.
2) On the cycle stop valve interactive demo, I believe the demo is misleading. The demo appears to be using the same size pressure tank for both examples. I understand the fact that the csv will do what it is suppose to during extended periods of water use, but most water use during the course of a day is very intermittent.
During the course of an average day’s water use, here is how I see the 2 systems comparing:
4 showers at different times.
csv cycles on and off 3 different times, running for the entire time for each shower.
properly sized tank
perhaps 5 times depending on the length of each shower .
flushing toilet
csv cycles on and off each time a toilet is flushed
properly sized tank
0, depending on fill level of tank and will only cycle once the tank's volume is used up. So for an 80 gallon tank with a 60 gallon capacity, with toilets using 1 1/2 gallons per flush, I could expect close to 30 flushes before a pump cycle occurs.
running sink
potentially, the csv may cycle on and off each time the tap is turned on if the draw is more than the capacity of the smaller pressure tank, (more or less depending on demand)
properly sized tank
0, depending on fill level of tank
dishwasher
csv cycles on then off
properly sized tank
0, depending on fill level of tank
washer
csv cycles on then off approximately 3 different times, (fill + 2 rinse cycles)
properly sized tank
probably at least once, but possibly 0, depending on fill level of tank
Now I understand the fact that I have a lot of “depending on fill level of tank” scenarios, but if your using a properly sized tank, say 82g, (which is what my local guy suggested based on my well stats), then I have approximately 50g to use before my pump kicks in to refill the tank. That 50g will flush a few toilets, do a couple of loads of laundry and dishes without having to start up, where the csv will kick in almost every time.
3) With a CSV system, if I draw a small volume from say a tap and that triggers the pressure switch to start the pump to refill the pressure tank and assuming no draw from the sink or anything else, the pump will run for the time it takes to refill the pressure tank and satisfy the high pressure cutoff. Question is - how fast will the pressure tank take to refill at this minimal refill rate? I don't know what the refilling rate is. Is it based on say 1/2 gallon per minute through a small orifice therefore it might take a minute or 2 to fill up and turn the pump off. If this is the case, the pump could actually cycle more than if using a traditional large tank during small usage draws during the day. Is this correct?
I may be missing something and would be happy if you could fill in whatever blanks are missing in my thinking.
thanks, dave
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