Tankless info from consumer reports, Tankless...Bahhhhh

Discussion in 'Tankless Water Heater Forum' started by nhmaster, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Given some of the threads here outlining problems with Takagi units and getting the problem fixed I'll pass on the Korean Takagi...

    I'm in the Northeast with some pretty cool water temps about now. I will state IMHO that the only payoff I see in tankless is with gas fired units for a situation where the home owner want an unlimited amount of hot water within the flow rate allowed by the heater(s) installed. I.E Large family with back to back to back showers and baths, larger tubs, & carwash showers. Show me otherwise and somebody is cooking the books!:cool:
  2. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    :) :) :) :) :) :)

    Yabbut, you don't get it, they're not Takagis they're Naviens- Naviens go to eleven, Takagis only go to 10... ;-) (Some Noritz models are Takagis- barely more than a nameplate change. Ever wonder why some Noritz models use Takagi remote controls? )

    But in fact Naviens are their own design, probably come with their own unique sets of misery! ;-)

    The scuttlebutt that some of the design team came from Takagi doesn't say much either way about 'em. They coulda been the guys who specified or designed the less-than-fully-reliable flame detector for the TK2, but they just as easily have been the guys who wanted to do it right, but were overridden by the group consensus or management, and thus were happy to bolt to a more receptive Navien when the opportunity presented itself. (I've seen many variations on this movie.) Chryslers didn't become Fords when Iacocca bolted either.

    Whether the Navien proves more reliable than the competition remains to be seen, but local technical support and parts availability are useful for any device this complex. Tanks are definitely simpler beasts, with more limited sets of problems (but I've seen issues with electronic ignition on tanks less than 2 years old too, eh?) The complexity buys you some efficiency, but only at some cost. It's not a "set and forget" world, and is becoming less so every day. Where the cost/benefit is for anybody has a lot of factors (damned few of which were addressed in the CU article.)
  3. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    When will this topic just DIE. :eek:

    I will sum up tankless water heaters;

    Expensive to buy
    Expensive to have installed
    Somewhat less expensive to operate
    May not produce enough hot water
    Work better in warmer climates
    Work better with good water conditions
    May not meet code in all localaties (remember the code does say that you have to provide hot water to all fixtures in the home)
    Require regular service
    Cause heated arguments that never ever seem to end.



  4. Just drop the damn link and get it over with. Sheesh! :mad:
  5. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I'm with you Rugged.:mad:

    Here I'll put the damn link up! Maybe he'll go away then!
    http://www.navienamerica.com/products/condensing-residential.html

    I'll let someone else be the guinea pig!
    When I hear nothing but good news I'll jump on the band wagon....
    I'll breath until then thanks.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  6. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

    Messages:
    221
    This morning I measured the flow rate of my shower head with the flow rate set to full on. My shower head is indeed a 2.2 gallon per minute shower head. I just set the volume knog in the shower to the flow rate that feels comfortable. That comfortable flow rate is about 1 gpm,and about 1/3 of the water is from the cold valve.

    I would not be surprised if I could run two simultaneous showers even with the current low 40 degree incoming water temperature. I will test that after I get my second shower finished up.

    Obviously, some people do not like "low flow" shower heads. They require something more like the Commando 450!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlrtQb24Qxw&feature=related


    [video=youtube;dlrtQb24Qxw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlrtQb24Qxw[/video]

    The IPC commisioned a study about the flow rate required to take a shower. They found it hard to complete the study.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUoyb1bgSAo&feature=related

    [video=youtube;hUoyb1bgSAo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUoyb1bgSAo[/video]
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2010
  7. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Die Die Die Please God just Die!:D
  8. WV Hillbilly

    WV Hillbilly New Member

    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    WV
    Exactly what I've been thinking about the whirlpool water heater thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  9. C NUMB

    C NUMB Plumbing Contractor

    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    NPR, FL


    I agree with the above quote with the exception of them working better in a warmer climate- No they don't!!
  10. 99k

    99k Radon Contractor and Water Treatment

    Messages:
    460
    Location:
    Fairfield Co.,Connecticut
    Ok I waiting for my electric water to die and it won't ... so I'm going to bring it behind the barn and shoot it. We have a 45 yr/old furnace so I don't feel like creating hot water from the furnace. I am convinced I do not want a tankless. What about the stand alone gas heaters with a power ventilator? We don't have gas so I'd have to get a 100 gallon tank of propane. Does this option make sense and if so can you recommend a good brand. Thanks.
  11. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine


    Love you man. :D
  12. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

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    1,705
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Oh you can make them work great, if you put in more than one.
  13. gregsauls

    gregsauls Homeowner

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    Texas
    #1 Bought my Rinnai r74lsi for $675 +$150 for vent pipe. Subtract $300 fed tax rebate.

    #2 Installed myself.... I can do good DIY !

    #3 Yep, didn't really care about cost SAVINGS but did get some.

    #4 FALSE, damn lies too! All the hot water I want for a family of 6...Fact!

    #5 Live in NE Texas, good inlet water temps. I don't live north of MD line and life is good.

    #6 No code issue, Gas company rep was drooling over it!

    #7 Once a year. Own a vehicle and don't do routine service???

    #8 Only by a few.... "up north folks"

    Alternate hot water sources are here to stay. Being "green and energy efficient" will probably be mandated by the cmty for "change" that was just elected, like it or not.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2009
  14. C NUMB

    C NUMB Plumbing Contractor

    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    NPR, FL
    gregsauls, you got a deal on that unit, around here they start at 1100. By the time you are done it is usually around $1600 installed with permit as long as you already have gas, if not it is closer to $2400.


    BTW, I looked at your install on your blog, nice job!
  15. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Hooray!

    I'm wrong yet again. (whips self while hanging head in shame):D
  16. gregsauls

    gregsauls Homeowner

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    Texas
    Thanks for the compliments! I did get a good deal from a local wholesale house a buddy of mine manages. Funny thing, "the bay of E" sellers were within a few $$ of the local price but having the backing of my buddy was worth it.

    It's not a question of being right or wrong on going tankless. What needs to happen is for some to realize that what works for some may not work for others and more importantly... vice-versa. Tankless isn't the answer for everyone situation or location, but the fact remains it DOES work... at least for some.

    So generic answers of "they suck" are highly biased and should be judged as such.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2009
  17. gregsauls,



    You're the minority. The less than 1% that can do these required tasks like installing it, maintaining it.


    I talk for the 99% that don't, or CAN'T.


    And what happens when your house of 6 loses hot water because of a malfunction...???



    We already know; you're going to be the one on the phone to the 1-800 number, the rep who sold it to you, begging for overnight or same day air-shipment of parts that you "think" match the error code on the majic box on the wall.


    6 people without hot water for hours, days isn't what I want. The majority want hot water within hours of a call to a plumber, to have the right parts and not fetch them from across the globe.


    And what happens if you become disabled to work on that unit:


    You just forced your family to really pay out the nose for repairs, maintenance, upkeep. You won't live forever, that's a known fact.


    20 years from now when it's as common as a part at the local hardware store, yes. But right now it's a high risk for many, especially that buy the BS about the green way of life because point of use is a new word?


    Point of use has been around for a long time, it just got elevated to handle a whole house. Nobody discusses the excessive use of these since they can take a 30-400 minute shower. Let's not talk about that, those car wash showerheads and what not.

    EXCESS WITH AN EXCUSE. :cool:
  18. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I just can't resist... They Suck

    forgive me lord..
    That weren't funny :D
  19. gregsauls

    gregsauls Homeowner

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    Texas
    I like being that special 1% "that can" !!!! Thank you for the compliment, seriously. I do not feel I put my family at "risk" installing a tankless in the least little bit. And quit honestly a scare tactic like that will keep people away from technology. If it fails, yes I will be on the phone for parts. Just the same way I would be at the big orange box store replacing a TANK water heater when it springs a leak.... lets only hope I am THERE when it does it and can do damage control.

    All dogs have fleas.... but it's still my dog to love!


  20. Good points taken, and yes, you should be proud that you can do this work yourself.


    I was just mentioning the time factor from malfunction-to-repair that has people without water for days with a tankless.


    That's why I mentioned that in 20 years that this problem will most likely be removed.

    It has to get down to availability, common product to be worthwhile, which takes time.

    As a plumber I can see myself getting hustled on these when they fail, when it comes to replacement.


    Customer will take the old one off, put the new one on the wall and my job will be the "hook up" part and they'll minimize the effort stating, "Well I already mounted the unit for ya, sheesh! :rolleyes:"

    Oh yeah, I can get that done for ya, $40 and a gallon of milk please.
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